From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC384feBBoE42aogA@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 09:33:15 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O105v-0005TT-7f; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:33:15 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf1382321ywh.28 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:33:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pQhgskRA0pScPVZKPXVL3AWXlcQbkrCaIDXT6UGGyFU=; b=PDSozn4+WZerOfULAdcRtuqk5PkNhDLERYI3BYTOvcnywYcf4FSMg44VQFUTpkRnXt 6vvQ4eIRDIBBTgdqVs/4JbfT/4+zhgll0GVhTMQgVL7WjZ1Jh6w+qqkxJW38Uct21nhx LpSyYDiDVNQYqr9hd2t+kBEZN1/LtwqBUaaTY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q3nAQa5TAP9pvKpgUKFf0uYyYg3cworUNj09VPySzD/rVlpQzX3hpZvMp8hdGSEQOQ Si5rAphXajD5YxLdJmv6uamNEdByrmPc07fDYByB8Juf09yCcUcUyhPaorqTgSUTV82U u4Xym5TUql+GEkZJjD79yxw62sV7omtMTpzCo= Received: by 10.91.182.17 with SMTP id j17mr477397agp.31.1271003575353; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:32:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls252149agk.6.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.205.15 with SMTP id c15mr381108agg.11.1271003574704; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.205.15 with SMTP id c15mr381107agg.11.1271003574664; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.124]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 17si309343gxk.4.2010.04.11.09.32.53; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.124; Received: (qmail 41848 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Apr 2010 16:32:53 -0000 Message-ID: <233975.38695.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: mQhSW8EVM1mB2KQuttVrafZJZ38pB8KQoZ7vylkoa9coWy8 fK2KUo_bp0VpIh3s2ZP1Mp219Z_Nmas_eSMcBXun71GdaTm2CgeK3lGhfVy8 BtFHbVMTrCvO2KE53srswq5IvIj..5d12C_QXUhAFk6VApTDu7UsZycyzwlb m6aQ0OlHWXrv07n8lyitvlWOE5YqSDpUALSCRjgqXlT0OmF2RtEb4AnwbP56 RbWINRtjd6HN_w7bF3ik0K7s7xFADlXXLBGX3r8IUatd7Q.ysl_Yy8od7.bM 6Y3ZiCXdZY6WMbnU_.KCL_EWnbtNOFDQEAJkqUaQ3lhKeqnPIjR4YL.2pg8G N28Kl463huFBEM_aUU2vEA.PPWIlc8ctp9wMH Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:32:53 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <807463.65850.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <530127.97864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:32:53 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e5f815c9665151d5 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's nice to know, but then I suspect (as I noted) that our difference is= in how 'lo broda' is interpreted and that brings up the universe of discou= rse (the range of bound variables). Or perhaps it is what is the right way= to express a non-specific desire: "I want a dog", say. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, April 11, 2010 10:27:58 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 12:08 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > From: Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> "lo broda =3D zo'e noi ke'a broda". In other words it's simply somethin= g that is an x1 >> of broda. Nothing more is specified. >> _________ >> >> Well, not exactly. > > Yes, that's exactly how it works. > > Apparently not. Yes, exactly so. > What's an intensional object? Things like "lo se nitcu"? "lo se > claxu"? "lo se djica"? "lo xanri"? > > Well, yes and no. Some things that these might refer to are intensional = objects, others are not. OK, so it seems you agree that "lo se claxu" can sometimes refer to an intensional object, and sometimes not. > It depends on how the reference is made (I am speaking here, of course, o= f the real 'lo' -- in the xorlo these are probably all intensional object = just li lo gerku.) I meant the references made as I made them, namely: "lo se nitcu", "lo se claxu", "lo se djica", "lo xanri". I don't know why you need to make any assumptions about xorlo, since I have just told you how it works, why that "probably"? It's simple: lo se nitcu =3D zo'e noi ke'a se nitcu lo se claxu =3D zo'e noi ke'a se claxu lo se djica =3D zo'e noi ke'a se djica lo xanri =3D zo'e noi ke'a xanri lo gerku =3D zo'e noi ke'a gerku > If it is important, we have ways of letting people know how many brodas a= re involved. Indeed. > Do we have corresponding ways of telling people that this case of 'lo bro= da' is intensional? Probably yes, but "lo" by itself doesn't do it. > The point is that intensionality makes a logical difference, which a logi= cal language ought to show. Of course it does, just like number, manner of distribution, etc, make logical differences, that sometimes matter and sometimes don't. > If the weight of this is to be carried on the gadri (I don't see why it s= hould be), Neither do I see why it should be. We agree! >then xorlo doesn't do it. Of course it doesn't, that's the whole point. It is not something that has to be carried on the gadri. (Unless perhaps the gadri "lo'e" has something to do with it, but nobody really knows how "lo'e" really works yet, and in that case the keyword "typical" would be nonsense.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.