From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDHh4jeBBoEilVrcA@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 10:16:18 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O10lW-0000ZM-6s; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:16:18 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf5266568qyk.1 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:16:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nNoVxkxYtvf1c5Il9eAlOg5ym9hAjjLdqFSUQM6oN1E=; b=MkWOQyzH1iqpq9LIaYUA2VDRI1L4r60iA9+/fcFhncDWJdeAKvG3pfC1K0+Xd5p2Rp L0GOkYdcqRKrUGo90WyXnXY7NfDHjmpJCeOiMxhSj+8AAsUezceHzd+pCKbTyjy8Ek9S sAk9bqnnUEn8j+PgriVbwWoZ8VfhwHtNq65JQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=U//URTRF2y8+yj0QHEu76DQZ3Tx4oX91eJ046YjUKm24XZqeJaJKqRr1S6RRKioMX0 JU4OfigY2/Vx8SrWVTHMYrYEHtHSuznM+JTxv8IdGh7YluXWm3W0imjZABbwN13035U+ ah6pYxPzolSP5yltgNxHTm1fO5rpx1Nasp184= Received: by 10.224.25.15 with SMTP id x15mr135111qab.21.1271006151884; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.41.66 with SMTP id n2ls589531qae.3.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.79.218 with SMTP id q26mr274475qak.29.1271006150501; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.79.218 with SMTP id q26mr274474qak.29.1271006150472; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.144]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si471617qyk.13.2010.04.11.10.15.49; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.144 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.92.144; Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so1609668qwk.50 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:15:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.212 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:15:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <233975.38695.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <807463.65850.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <530127.97864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <233975.38695.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:15:49 -0300 Received: by 10.229.217.14 with SMTP id hk14mr4323228qcb.89.1271006149250; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.144 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e6502df57575c082 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 1:32 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > That's nice to know, but then I suspect (as I noted) that our difference = is in how 'lo broda' is interpreted and that brings up the universe of disc= ourse (the range of bound variables). =A0Or perhaps it is what is the right= way to express a non-specific desire: "I want a dog", say. Discussing "I want a dog" will inevitably bring in the definition of "djica", which according to the gi'uste requires an event in the x2, and that will obscure the issue, which is not really about whether "lo se djica" has to be an event or whether it can also be an object. Consider instead the equally non-specific desire "I want to talk to John". That's (hopefully uncontroversially) "mi djica lo nu mi tavla la djan". Now "lo nu mi tavla la djan" could also refer to a particular event of my talking to John, as in "lo nu mi tavla la djan cu nau fasnu", or it could be used to quantify over events of my talking to John, as in "ro lo nu mi tavla la djan cu cinri", in which case any wanted but as yet unrealized event probably doesn't enter into the picture. If I am currently talking to John and happy to be doing so, then my current talking to John is something I do want and I could say "mi djica lo nu mi tavla la djan" meaning that the current event is not something that I'm doing against my will. That's an unlikely interpretation without more context though, because if I say that I want something, it is probably something I don't have at the moment. Then I could also say "lo nu mi tavla la djan cu cafne", which obviously cannot refer to any particular event of my talking to John, because a particular single event cannot occur frequently, a particular single event only occurs that once. I don't really see you objecting to any of that. You will probably want to say that what's good for "lo fasnu" is no good for "lo gerku", but I don't, and I think that's where our (seemingly unresolvable) difference is. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.