From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCEl4jeBBoEylCH5w@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 10:49:15 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O11HS-0002r4-Dc; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:49:15 -0700 Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21sf2739998gwj.16 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:49:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rGO0ULzcH7pCBkTtmBf6f/6UpiCqGRogcAgmM/fNzg4=; b=JZdZTzAw3XyCzEAfme5lPv8k42fOgWPA1YFltUXet87v8wkAIJRge9pA948QEDtEXl 0cV7qcv4zksprsrcCgM0uc61L13Ub+TEUrdZ/UZ8x5gXmNLe9rB7Kh5ozRfsHNslMASH EhlKJrdw9HCp2D/VTzYt8sbaG4mgaFO8Qepho= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MmMX9pMitwCyc2CiFVvFGx6B8FL9z4tl27WOD0qPWlhCkEPNKWRhj6YYGhabfQGJux oGSpdzuafZphvQHmgecFe9C7sxe25be4Q4zy8Kbh2TNcMi0WTS6/t9ksVkipBOewLJlq JpZHb+oEfvJjhrfHF+idxd1JWu2bDtxOCpzkM= Received: by 10.91.209.13 with SMTP id l13mr478148agq.17.1271008132479; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:48:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.172.20 with SMTP id u20ls257941age.4.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr2610553agd.6.1271008130543; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.131.19 with SMTP id e19mr2610552agd.6.1271008130514; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 11si297423gxk.13.2010.04.11.10.48.49; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 95512 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Apr 2010 17:48:49 -0000 Message-ID: <96049.93691.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 3Y_i7JUVM1l7kAY7FZbEXKnHgb2Vq.htbLUVskJqs7DmCUu ackP1BXghqWMP1MxG1FwVuQS1z63UZZJPytRejWnmMxICMmTbVGMhcdsOF0s SdxuG74eWGpjOxGHvjYquUaH1DvZ2zvYmu3n3NsFCj4699z5Glr6tfJinLgm 3SWeveHQA86PbPZqM0CXU_KHk_VOKEyMqb6PpffGycDRqupI3aC6ke0pJyCj WO2.Razpn01fLJJVQFy2QXfNdAHJHIK4uib8HxQgMgmSuMOnaqtDsXWxv7dj yi74AfqG0.LRWKOg6Fz01_CAE0aOT5RGXOkyHHknXc5SWdBAYLOO71LX1wed 2_OfQYtC7EIMMk7o8_lWmtO7HWHcWXi0_U2wu Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:48:48 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <807463.65850.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <530127.97864.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <233975.38695.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:48:48 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b4c2258312d635eb Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, yes: lo fasnu is an intensional object and lo gerku hopefully is not. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, April 11, 2010 12:15:49 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 1:32 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > That's nice to know, but then I suspect (as I noted) that our difference = is in how 'lo broda' is interpreted and that brings up the universe of disc= ourse (the range of bound variables). Or perhaps it is what is the right w= ay to express a non-specific desire: "I want a dog", say. Discussing "I want a dog" will inevitably bring in the definition of "djica", which according to the gi'uste requires an event in the x2, and that will obscure the issue, which is not really about whether "lo se djica" has to be an event or whether it can also be an object. Consider instead the equally non-specific desire "I want to talk to John". That's (hopefully uncontroversially) "mi djica lo nu mi tavla la djan". Now "lo nu mi tavla la djan" could also refer to a particular event of my talking to John, as in "lo nu mi tavla la djan cu nau fasnu", or it could be used to quantify over events of my talking to John, as in "ro lo nu mi tavla la djan cu cinri", in which case any wanted but as yet unrealized event probably doesn't enter into the picture. If I am currently talking to John and happy to be doing so, then my current talking to John is something I do want and I could say "mi djica lo nu mi tavla la djan" meaning that the current event is not something that I'm doing against my will. That's an unlikely interpretation without more context though, because if I say that I want something, it is probably something I don't have at the moment. Then I could also say "lo nu mi tavla la djan cu cafne", which obviously cannot refer to any particular event of my talking to John, because a particular single event cannot occur frequently, a particular single event only occurs that once. I don't really see you objecting to any of that. You will probably want to say that what's good for "lo fasnu" is no good for "lo gerku", but I don't, and I think that's where our (seemingly unresolvable) difference is. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.