From 3Kg61SwwJBjkVYVhbVmmdbpnbhVdg.XjhgjeWVibjjbgZbmjpkn.Xjh@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 01 14:21:09 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f154.google.com ([209.85.221.154]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Kg61SwwJBjkVYVhbVmmdbpnbhVdg.XjhgjeWVibjjbgZbmjpkn.Xjh@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxRp2-0000tf-Bk for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:21:08 -0700 Received: by qyk26 with SMTP id 26sf3827991qyk.12 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:20:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=iXnZlqti15GhNR1oPclxCHjvjGifUcjyhOUOCL6T2Qo=; b=oFAGi88YPaHOPLvi2sPEKiVPCg5UQ6FHV20kOl7Cb9KlzrdwvsHh0BG7hQSLLSXtsw iZjpe6NqJZ6PBrvQBDsyd4BhIxE91oiTTE0c5Crvp54lWDa7aXmH6rfd1yiUCklmkmug MBEB0TAtfxsr9nZfHtKSjLQBOaSZE5TiScV38= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WfLlbBXDOCyD9Dh8efvcJ0qUJ+W67IcPOGRoTTjw3ITY0PBHXMfbfG47pO1w2vFm6D L4sLc03YHcCLjmwdjfdpsRWaCEFFd4lcKUCNic2y6aEkvwbXDIC+D3ZVORVf1kKU9731 BxR4oFC6s2+REVArW9K/TSuNyR7CDpm6GDMRs= Received: by 10.229.121.149 with SMTP id h21mr23777qcr.38.1270156842805; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:20:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.131.101 with SMTP id w37ls402719qcs.0.p; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.213.208 with SMTP id gx16mr101032qcb.17.1270156841034; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.213.208 with SMTP id gx16mr101031qcb.17.1270156840963; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f45.google.com (mail-vw0-f45.google.com [209.85.212.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si888094qyk.5.2010.04.01.14.20.39; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.45; Received: by vws18 with SMTP id 18so367503vws.18 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:20:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.74.136 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:20:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201003312350.52303.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:20:39 -0400 Received: by 10.220.107.104 with SMTP id a40mr773808vcp.67.1270156839650; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamgarrigus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: adamgarrigus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/e2626d29cf196a8f List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09fa21c293c85240483336fe4 --00c09fa21c293c85240483336fe4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMHO I can't see any reason to not base such words wholly on the autonym, eschewing the ISO codes, especially considering that we have, for the first time in history, the ability to easily access the autonyms of 99% of the world's ethnicities & languages. And also since that second code is merely an abbreviation of the language family, which doesn't seem like a sensible candidate for inclusion in the fu'ivla. I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read every word. S= o if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I apologize. Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if the language name derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latter, but that's no= t the point I'm making): portugala po'olska .arxabi .argona ba'anla bamnana kernoue ko'orsu dzo'onxa mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Christopher Doty wrot= e: > Alright, so, here are some revised/reconcocted fu'ivla for languages. I > decided that there wasn't really a good way to go about standardizing how > the two codes fits into the fu'ivla, but the main one was that, if you ha= ve > a seven-letter fu'ivla, you get an extra C or V, and that seems like it > should be based on the autonym (or at least the source for the ISO code), > and not just a random consonant. > > I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't necessarily feel very > strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even though a bit of > opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO codes. For the > letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a code and as the sound /k/,= I > changed the "c" to "ck," which represents both the writing and the sound, > plus making an easy, freebie cluster. "C"s pronounced as "ch" became "tc= ," > although in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-letter ISO co= de. > When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I left is "c." > > fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family) > portine - Portuguese (Portugu=C3=AAs/por/ine) > polsine - Polish (polski/pol/ine) > .arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/afa) > .argo'ine - Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s/arg/ine) > bengine - Bengali (=E0=A6=AC=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=82=E0=A6=B2=E0=A6=BE [=CB=88b= a=C5=8Bla]/ben/ine) > bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan) > ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine) > ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine) > dzositV - Dzongkha (=E0=BD=A2=E0=BE=AB=E0=BD=BC=E0=BD=84=E0=BC=8B=E0=BD= =81/dzo/sit) > Etc. > > How do this look to people? > > Chris > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Doty wrot= e: > >> Yeah, it might not end up working; or, rather, it might have to be a mor= e >> general, to say, for example, that all of the fu'ivla for languages will= be >> of eight letters (or something), but without any reference to a specific >> structure... >> >> I'll poke at it and see what pops out. >> >> 2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas >> >>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty >>> wrote: >>> >>> > So, for example, if the language ISO code is >>> > CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'ivla, >>> etc., >>> > for each of the possible combinations. >>> >>> The immediate problem I see there is that the CC has high chances of >>> not being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster. >>> >>> If it's just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in >>> front to get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's more of a >>> problem. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >>> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00c09fa21c293c85240483336fe4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMHO I can't see any reason to not base such words wholly on the autony= m, eschewing the ISO codes, especially considering that we have, for the fi= rst time in history, the ability to easily access the autonyms of 99% of th= e world's ethnicities & languages. And also since that second code = is merely an abbreviation of the language family, which doesn't seem li= ke a sensible candidate for inclusion in the fu'ivla.

I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read e= very word. So if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I = apologize. Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if th= e language name derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latte= r, but that's not the point I'm making):

portugala
po'olska
.arxabi
.argona
ba'anla
bamna= na
kernoue
ko'orsu
dzo'onxa

mu'o mi'e komfo= ,amonan


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 P= M, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Alright, so, here= are some revised/reconcocted fu'ivla for languages. =C2=A0I decided th= at there wasn't really a good way to go about standardizing how the two= codes fits into the fu'ivla, but the main one was that, if you have a = seven-letter fu'ivla, you get an extra C or V, and that seems like it s= hould be based on the autonym (or at least the source for the ISO code), an= d not just a random consonant.

I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't neces= sarily feel very strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even t= hough a bit of opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO code= s. =C2=A0For the letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a c= ode and as the sound /k/, I changed the "c" to "ck," wh= ich represents both the writing and the sound, plus making an easy, freebie= cluster. =C2=A0"C"s pronounced as "ch" became "tc= ," although in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-let= ter ISO code. =C2=A0When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I lef= t is "c."

fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family= )
portine - Portuguese (Portugu=C3=AAs/por/ine)
polsine= - Polish (polski/pol/ine)
.arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/= afa)
.argo'ine - Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s/arg/ine)
bengine - Be= ngali (=E0=A6=AC=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=82=E0= =A6=B2=E0=A6=BE [=CB=88ba=C5=8Bla]/ben/ine)
bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan)
ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine)
ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine)
=
dzositV - Dzongkha (=E0=BD=A2=E0=BE=AB=E0=BD=BC= =E0=BD=84=E0=BC=8B=E0=BD=81/dzo/sit)
Etc.

How do this look to people?

Chris

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Do= ty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, it might not end up working; or, rather, it might have to be a more g= eneral, to say, for example, that all of the fu'ivla for languages will= be of eight letters (or something), but without any reference to a specifi= c structure...

I'll poke at it and see what pops out.

2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.co= m>
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote= :

> =C2=A0=C2=A0So, for example, if the language ISO code is
> CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'= ;ivla, etc.,
> for each of the possible combinations.

The immediate problem I see there is= that the CC has high chances of
not being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster.

If it's just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in front to get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's mor= e of a
problem.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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