From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCXioneBBoERIPqwA@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 14:55:11 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f165.google.com ([209.85.221.165]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O157R-00020N-5g; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:55:11 -0700 Received: by qyk37 with SMTP id 37sf11668590qyk.20 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6rByFrY1FchiVeQmq1v7LLdU8hh/w+8dpMaOB4dIWNQ=; b=o7J79msjyNE+pQ8uxOLV18uisCTxUGraoVC0mKTKK7xqKGmDXbpuiUZC4eNZWVbPG1 +/CrewG3HrxAopr9o1wgqh2O1pwVG8pWSYwBD5VTEf1kF9PdSHYUqDxIseUAp7LNdeCq iodSpHjuf0eKhSaYFp8G8sPeFDEb56FG1msrk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ic/jdqt0OPZ4cxaIagG8sjt8i+oJBnAYOrr1z2yCB9lyC2oK/VNts7rReMmm6b3SFd //kJ2+TlGLSVLuPUM/RzAXSbAYWekVutFReLX1mlgiLtxT4ei77saX7YTkebgMTOuA5X aSDFZSQRj+8UddnBnP4/IejBKmCSNQ+HSquZQ= Received: by 10.224.84.205 with SMTP id k13mr152427qal.8.1271022871662; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.42.12 with SMTP id q12ls631447qae.0.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.59.166 with SMTP id l38mr296533qah.19.1271022869961; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.59.166 with SMTP id l38mr296532qah.19.1271022869925; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si511325qyk.14.2010.04.11.14.54.28; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.25 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.92.25; Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so1640220qwi.15 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.212 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1f21ad76-99b6-4abe-9043-994ca2ecb9e2@s9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> References: <1f21ad76-99b6-4abe-9043-994ca2ecb9e2@s9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 18:54:28 -0300 Received: by 10.229.218.203 with SMTP id hr11mr4602898qcb.85.1271022868748; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Active-stative? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.25 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/cdf18777732f3c27 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/96b00a63c3cc9b91 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 5:55 PM, tijlan wrote: > > The gimste says about "sance": > > =A0x2 sounds (intransitive verb) i.e. the intransitive English verb "to sound" (as opposed to the transitive English verb "to sound". As in "the bell sounds", not as in "John sounds the bell". The comment is about the English verb, not about the Lojban predicate. > This seems to be assuming that, in the form of "sance da", the x1 is > non-existent even without explicitly marking so with "zi'o". It depends on what you mean by "non-existent". In Lojban, every sumti can be dropped when not required by context, either replaced by "zo'e" or by nothing, depending on the requirements of word-order. "sance da" is equivalent to "zo'e sance da". > =A0to'o lo zdani cu klama zu'e mi sepi'o lo karce > > It has nothing relevant to "klama"s place structure, and still makes > possible the interpretation of what otherwise the alignment of > "klama"s x1, x3, and x5 could give. It's equivalent to: zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e to'o lo zdani cu klama zu'e mi sepi'o lo karce The core arguments are all left implicit. >> =A0The Basque example could equally well be: >> >> *Mutila gizonak ikusi du.* >> *[mutil-a] [gizon-ak] [ikusi du]* >> *[boy-ABS] [man-ERG] [saw]* >> * >> *which still corresponds to Lojban [lo nanmu] [lo nanla] [pu viska].* > > But is there anything which would in practice prevent Basque speakers > to interpret "lo nanmu" as ergative and "lo nanla" as absolutive? Any Lojban speaker, whatever their background, would interpret "lo nanmu" as being in x1-case and "lo nanla" as being in x2-case. x1-case is the case that is common to all intransitive predicates, and to one of the arguments of transitive predicates. Languages that use the same case for all intransitive predicates and for the case that most often corresponds to the agent in transitive predicates are said to have nominative-accusative alignment. Languages that use the same case for all intransitive predicates and for the case that most often corresponds to the patient in transitive predicates are said to have ergative-absolutive alignment. Lojban in principle could fall into either of those two types, but because in the basic lexicon the x1 is more often the case of the agent rather than the patient, the natural classification is as nominative-accusative alignment. > Does that mean that what Basque "-ak" does cannot be translated into > Lojban by means of other than word ordering, like "gau"? Basque "-ak" will sometimes be translated by suitable word order, sometimes by "gau", but the classification of Lojban in a given morphosyntactic alignment type is completely internal to Lojban, it has nothing to do with how this or that is translated from other languages. > I know Wikipedia isn't a perfect linguistics reference, but I thought > that was what was meant by: > =A0"the marking of the intransitive argument is decided by the speaker > based on semantic considerations." > =A0(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_stative) Which in Lojban is not the case. In Lojban the sole core argument of an intransitive predicate is always "fa" or its positional equivalent: being in first position before the selbri. > But why should the prescriptive ordering of unmarked arguments (i.e. > place structure) be the ONLY morphosyntactic alignment ("the system > used to distinguish between the arguments of transitive verbs and > those of intransitive verbs") in Lojban? By definition? > An experiencer can be marked > with "ri'i", so why should "ri'i da" not mean what the hypothetical > "zo'e zo'e x3" would mean? BAIs and other tags may add non-core arguments to a predicate, they don't replace the core arguments. > How do we know the x1 of a multi-argument predicate is a subject, > outside the nominative English (etc.) definition of its place > structure? "mi viska ra" -- Why should this "mi" exclusively be the > subject by default? It's the x1-argument, calling it "subject" doesn't add anything. It is the argument that shares the same case as the sole case of single argument predicates. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.