From 3_hK1SwoJBhIAC640uz90Ay4s03.u64361ts5y66y3wy96C7A.u64@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 01 14:41:45 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3_hK1SwoJBhIAC640uz90Ay4s03.u64361ts5y66y3wy96C7A.u64@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxS8x-0001xD-4V for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:45 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf1203119gyd.16 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=1Ui3qAe8lI7GQJ4uz+FIDlhSA3LJK4DDEe6McR7oz1w=; b=Uec8r9V4vlIAH54tyT8+DqgKk1hg45t6xBPqcW476j0UeCgqg25B6q+ucwCMr+Nguv +bNIWdXVg87jpVwPNvlxqoMBwWILVIFJPZWfKyJKOc8cB1CMRYsGqDuS9tiNh1BwRBB/ hTKPs9tgs3nvEaWIMpJcOxTyt5DPR7iQTX54g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=7JrLVcDrlxA8ikysHzz6wGnqxVUNDVdCGesTFVNP54QE2acXEN2PG+fXgJvbfxvmWF ovNamdpJcxeXs45PT2lGEokjHYFSplQ2UABLLBFXC2yOP3aKzJJLrVCZCxljf0nmkOFD HER9ulAkS5psODwCzMu3qgJQZzn7fIQL6j4b4= Received: by 10.150.241.1 with SMTP id o1mr91742ybh.42.1270158078174; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls324246agk.6.p; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr2738357agp.3.1270158076902; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr2738354agp.3.1270158076813; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f171.google.com (mail-gy0-f171.google.com [209.85.160.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si372331yxe.1.2010.04.01.14.41.15; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.171; Received: by mail-gy0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 12so2107831gyd.2 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.5.20 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:40:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201003312350.52303.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Christopher Doty Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:40:52 -0700 Received: by 10.100.243.15 with SMTP id q15mr3406094anh.233.1270158072321; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of suomichris@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=suomichris@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: suomichris@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/66b3c56fda4814a6 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c928ffb5ca40048333b880 --001636c928ffb5ca40048333b880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was brought up before, but I don't know that it was closed "closed" exactly. As I said earlier today, though, using the autonyms directly creates any number of problems, one of which could even be the claim that doing so makes these words more culturally biased than the international standard. I mean, how do we do this with autonyms? You have "portugala," presumably for Portuguese, but far closer to the autonym would be "portugese" or "portugesa." What about groups that don't have names for their languages? What about places where the language is called two or three different things? Which do we use? Do we keep the "ki-" prefixes, along with their variants, for all of the Bantu languages? If so, then why not keep the "lingua" with "lingua latina"? What about, for example, the Athabaskan languages, where the autonym is nearly always "people's (language)," and th= e languages are close enough that we'd have to figure out how to distinguish 20 words which are all something like "dene" and remember which goes with which. What do we do in Mexico, where speakers of completely unrelated languages often call their language "mexicano"? Do we just have "mexkano" for all of these 20 languages? The only thing I can see that we get with the autonyms is that they are the autonyms, but we get a whole bunch of other issues; I'm just not sure it's worth it. I'm willing to be persuaded*, but no one has really argued for autonyms for any particular reason.. Chris *In fact, I'd kind of LIKE to be persuaded--as a linguist who works with minority language communities, I have always been in favor of using the autonymic term when possible. But, if we really want the Lojban terms to b= e culturally neutral and as accessible to possible to people around the world= , then using autonyms is the wrong answer, as far as I can tell. On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 14:20, komfo,amonan wrote: > IMHO I can't see any reason to not base such words wholly on the autonym, > eschewing the ISO codes, especially considering that we have, for the fir= st > time in history, the ability to easily access the autonyms of 99% of the > world's ethnicities & languages. And also since that second code is merel= y > an abbreviation of the language family, which doesn't seem like a sensibl= e > candidate for inclusion in the fu'ivla. > > I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read every word. > So if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I apologize. > Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if the language na= me > derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latter, but that's = not > the point I'm making): > > portugala > po'olska > .arxabi > .argona > ba'anla > bamnana > kernoue > ko'orsu > dzo'onxa > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan > > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Christopher Doty wr= ote: > >> Alright, so, here are some revised/reconcocted fu'ivla for languages. I >> decided that there wasn't really a good way to go about standardizing ho= w >> the two codes fits into the fu'ivla, but the main one was that, if you h= ave >> a seven-letter fu'ivla, you get an extra C or V, and that seems like it >> should be based on the autonym (or at least the source for the ISO code)= , >> and not just a random consonant. >> >> I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't necessarily feel very >> strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even though a bit of >> opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO codes. For the >> letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a code and as the sound /k/= , I >> changed the "c" to "ck," which represents both the writing and the sound= , >> plus making an easy, freebie cluster. "C"s pronounced as "ch" became "t= c," >> although in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-letter ISO c= ode. >> When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I left is "c." >> >> fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family) >> portine - Portuguese (Portugu=C3=AAs/por/ine) >> polsine - Polish (polski/pol/ine) >> .arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/afa) >> .argo'ine - Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s/arg/ine) >> bengine - Bengali (=E0=A6=AC=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=82=E0=A6=B2=E0=A6=BE [=CB=88= ba=C5=8Bla]/ben/ine) >> bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan) >> ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine) >> ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine) >> dzositV - Dzongkha (=E0=BD=A2=E0=BE=AB=E0=BD=BC=E0=BD=84=E0=BC=8B=E0=BD= =81/dzo/sit) >> Etc. >> >> How do this look to people? >> >> Chris >> >> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Doty wro= te: >> >>> Yeah, it might not end up working; or, rather, it might have to be a mo= re >>> general, to say, for example, that all of the fu'ivla for languages wil= l be >>> of eight letters (or something), but without any reference to a specifi= c >>> structure... >>> >>> I'll poke at it and see what pops out. >>> >>> 2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > So, for example, if the language ISO code is >>>> > CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'ivla, >>>> etc., >>>> > for each of the possible combinations. >>>> >>>> The immediate problem I see there is that the CC has high chances of >>>> not being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster. >>>> >>>> If it's just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in >>>> front to get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's more of a >>>> problem. >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>> >>>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c928ffb5ca40048333b880 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was brought up before, but I don't know that it was closed "c= losed" exactly. =C2=A0As I said earlier today, though, using the auton= yms directly creates any number of problems, one of which could even be the= claim that doing so makes these words more culturally biased than the inte= rnational standard.

I mean, how do we do this with autonyms? =C2=A0You have &quo= t;portugala," presumably for Portuguese, but far closer to the autonym= would be "portugese" or "portugesa." What about groups= that don't have names for their languages? =C2=A0What about places whe= re the language is called two or three different things? =C2=A0Which do we = use? =C2=A0Do we keep the "ki-" prefixes, along with their varian= ts, for all of the Bantu languages? =C2=A0If so, then why not keep the &quo= t;lingua" with "lingua latina"? =C2=A0What about, for exampl= e, the Athabaskan languages, where the autonym is nearly always "peopl= e's (language)," and the languages are close enough that we'd = have to figure out how to distinguish 20 words which are all something like= "dene" and remember which goes with which. =C2=A0What do we do i= n Mexico, where speakers of completely unrelated languages often call their= language "mexicano"? =C2=A0Do we just have "mexkano" f= or all of these 20 languages?

The only thing I can see that we get with the autonyms = is that they are the autonyms, but we get a whole bunch of other issues; I&= #39;m just not sure it's worth it. =C2=A0I'm willing to be persuade= d*, but no one has really argued for autonyms for any particular reason..

Chris

*In fact, I'd kind o= f LIKE to be persuaded--as a linguist who works with minority language comm= unities, I have always been in favor of using the autonymic term when possi= ble. =C2=A0But, if we really want the Lojban terms to be culturally neutral= and as accessible to possible to people around the world, then using auton= yms is the wrong answer, as far as I can tell.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 14:20, komfo,amo= nan <komfoamo= nan@gmail.com> wrote:
IMHO I can't see any reason to not base such words wholly on the autony= m, eschewing the ISO codes, especially considering that we have, for the fi= rst time in history, the ability to easily access the autonyms of 99% of th= e world's ethnicities & languages. And also since that second code = is merely an abbreviation of the language family, which doesn't seem li= ke a sensible candidate for inclusion in the fu'ivla.

I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read e= very word. So if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I = apologize. Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if th= e language name derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latte= r, but that's not the point I'm making):

portugala
po'olska
.arxabi
.argona
ba'anla
bamna= na
kernoue
ko'orsu
dzo'onxa

mu'o mi'e komfo= ,amonan


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
<= /div>
Alright, so, here are some revised/reconcocted fu= 9;ivla for languages. =C2=A0I decided that there wasn't really a good w= ay to go about standardizing how the two codes fits into the fu'ivla, b= ut the main one was that, if you have a seven-letter fu'ivla, you get a= n extra C or V, and that seems like it should be based on the autonym (or a= t least the source for the ISO code), and not just a random consonant.

I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't neces= sarily feel very strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even t= hough a bit of opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO code= s. =C2=A0For the letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a c= ode and as the sound /k/, I changed the "c" to "ck," wh= ich represents both the writing and the sound, plus making an easy, freebie= cluster. =C2=A0"C"s pronounced as "ch" became "tc= ," although in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-let= ter ISO code. =C2=A0When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I lef= t is "c."

fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family= )
portine - Portuguese (Portugu=C3=AAs/por/ine)
polsine= - Polish (polski/pol/ine)
.arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/= afa)
.argo'ine - Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s/arg/ine)
bengine - Be= ngali (=E0=A6=AC=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=82=E0=A6= =B2=E0=A6=BE [=CB=88ba=C5=8Bla]/ben/ine)
bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan)
ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine)
ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine)
=
dzositV - Dzongkha (=E0=BD=A2=E0=BE=AB=E0=BD=BC= =E0=BD=84=E0=BC=8B=E0=BD=81/dzo/sit)
Etc.

How do this look to people?

Chris

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Do= ty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, it might not end up working; or, rather, it might have to be a more g= eneral, to say, for example, that all of the fu'ivla for languages will= be of eight letters (or something), but without any reference to a specifi= c structure...

I'll poke at it and see what pops out.

2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.co= m>
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote= :

> =C2=A0=C2=A0So, for example, if the language ISO code is
> CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'= ;ivla, etc.,
> for each of the possible combinations.

The immediate problem I see there is= that the CC has high chances of
not being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster.

If it's just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in front to get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's mor= e of a
problem.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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