From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBDBj4reBBoELOXvvw@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 19:39:19 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f137.google.com ([209.85.211.137]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O19YQ-0001N6-PH; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:39:19 -0700 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf1589386ywh.28 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:39:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=4v3slyOgV/cHnlQxO/8ZSS/z/5SfRwEh6+D/vDU6JhU=; b=ts62dfP8zedpYZlyldsuLWpqGrjLjCLCxuKRvs+q631+DcLk5TiYRmncol8/qvHsdU S9zEJ98SrwIDHiv//5ULjBZzd58FsNLY+xGmHNT7TgDy2Rep2vzGJjnJ+4W0jPU7hjRa rw4o/nhfyHwEYEvWvNedTB8t8RucyYxdZKLco= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=E0qLE972fpSKrsgXb8gmW2P1OWVqLZkQ5W47CR9cxn3xdmmMZ6I6sw5EdcqLnovQnA vyuF8kJXGLEoBHmc4boe/ZiQg8jGdrbAsgjyMeul6h72fXsE7k1Sf4TUrCQtRlPhLUc0 q8quMTQ5yp4CcLjyMLHxYuA8eSgrXSWroBthk= Received: by 10.91.49.16 with SMTP id b16mr537147agk.8.1271039937325; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.8 with SMTP id t8ls289177agl.2.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.58.18 with SMTP id l18mr2626149agk.1.1271039935347; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.58.18 with SMTP id l18mr2626142agk.1.1271039934886; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao105.cox.net (eastrmmtao105.cox.net [68.230.240.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si190940yxe.11.2010.04.11.19.38.54; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.47; Received: from eastrmimpo03.cox.net ([68.1.16.126]) by eastrmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100412023854.DKUO16574.eastrmmtao105.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:38:54 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.225.124]) by eastrmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id 4Seu1e0022hfrC602SeuNP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:38:54 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=garkv6WxUlWCZxlYffz6yNGlDVHTZyAXTUdcTJEJ4sc= c=1 sm=1 a=23hrbBm6BWMA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=PaJXPNsHEajgxykJWi0A:9 a=Wu0WPXkNH0st5RN5OYkA:7 a=ULJB1psJVfPBARL5-Ye4mP8UU4QA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BC2882F.6020903@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:40:47 -0400 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Active-stative? References: <1f21ad76-99b6-4abe-9043-994ca2ecb9e2@s9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <1f21ad76-99b6-4abe-9043-994ca2ecb9e2@s9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.47 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/cdf18777732f3c27 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/2eb5a8297133463 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed tijlan wrote: > On Apr 11, 7:14 pm, Christopher Doty wrote: > >>In Lojban, which lacks case marking and relies on word order in order to >>determine which slot of the predicate a given argument goes in, it is the >>ordering of those elements that tells us about alignment. > > > Can prepositions like BAI determine such slots? BAI was originally intended to encompass both prepositions and case tags. JCB had two separate sets of words, case tags used only to mark sumti and what he called "modals" and "relative operators", which could be used either to mark sumti as prepositions, or could be used in the tense location before the selbri. We felt the distinction was arbitrary and "metaphysically restrictive" and merged them. There are some members of BAI that more naturally get used as prepositions/case tags, and others that are more likely to be used to inflect the predicate itself, but you can use whatever works in whatever way is useful. The result is that grammatically the words that were originally case tags no longer are distinctively so (and the same for the other categories) and thus tend to be thought of as "prepositions", which is as much a misnomer as "modals" >> As .xorxes. >>noted, if Lojban were a split-S language, we'd find that some gismu with >>only one slot take an x1, while others take only an x2. But, this isn't the >>case: ALL gismu have an x1 slot; they don't all have an x2 slot. Thus, the >>x1 slot of single-argument gismu align with the x1 of two+-argument gismu. > > > The gimste says about "sance": > > x2 sounds (intransitive verb) > > This seems to be assuming that, in the form of "sance da", the x1 is > non-existent even without explicitly marking so with "zi'o". No. In such a sentence x1 is zo'e. zi'o never fills a place unless explicit. It was a late and somewhat reluctantly added cmavo. lojbab -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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