From lojban+bncCNCCoMTMDhCn94reBBoER60paQ@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 11 23:20:50 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1D0k-00083c-L7; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:50 -0700 Received: by gwj19 with SMTP id 19sf278396gwj.16 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4j9Lo7yQW521rnip859/0rNS9Br5Mp9M351uKsVKQtw=; b=HsvjwCfkwbyz05AyOS87iBKeXlOE/913kAbhODM2UrHBhtUdvL3Z4NopQslAfM/KsW BF3urCNGBcH0y3u5HImhCARJJEyLoWdQ/Cq4AmvPqUFTk4xsAWAstHXMn9jbX0InCL7T DTgAIGwKOiAJIaKgSASJDGaRtgmgc+qQdPJEA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=WKrucoZdd7zJ4C12rS+g3+fMabLiNalMRBPMbK+O4QfnrLdeSqigFQOw1QlZHGiNLp QkXVKqNgkSJJjKzq600ld15h4qTFPLMRtk2e6FjqCcGbYjc2hsmVzaTvcT1I42QS8RuD 8/uowes7baAVWxAKO7i7PxoACnhZlsUC9NQVU= Received: by 10.91.91.6 with SMTP id t6mr567729agl.14.1271053223023; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.8 with SMTP id t8ls306460agl.2.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.205.15 with SMTP id c15mr742892agg.11.1271053221621; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.205.15 with SMTP id c15mr742891agg.11.1271053221587; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f180.google.com (mail-gy0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si348823gxk.0.2010.04.11.23.20.20; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.180; Received: by gyb13 with SMTP id 13so2574121gyb.11 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.10.203 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> From: Stela Selckiku Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 02:20:00 -0400 Received: by 10.101.72.5 with SMTP id z5mr6449484ank.5.1271053220371; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/d8e039f813ac9c56 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Robert LeChevalier wro= te: > > Nora would have to speak for herself, but her misgivings extend to the ol= d > loi/lei pair (and I won't pretend to know any more, because I have no ide= a > what xorlo did to them). Simplified them. Made them comprehensible. Made them immediately, basically obvious. And if it wasn't xorlo that made Lojban's articles so simple that they are immediately obvious, well then, SOMETHING did, because now they are. The only and entire distinction between lo and loi is that the latter is a mass. Specifically, "loi broda" means exactly "lo gunma be lo broda", a mass composed of broda. All usages of "loi" could in fact be systematically rewritten as phrases using "lo" and "gunma". For instance "loi remna cu bevri lo pipno", the (mass of) humans carry the piano, is exactly equivalent to "lo gunma be lo remna cu bevri lo pipno", a mass whose components are humans carries the piano. The distinction between lo/loi and le/lei is a separate and equally simple distinction. In this case in the deep structure the meaning is accomplished by "skicu", describe. So "le broda" transforms to "zo'e noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda", something which I describe it to you as being broda. The only extent therefore to which the meaning of "le" is still uncertain is the extent to which we have not nailed down the meaning of "skicu". Here is how I understand it: The x1 (skicu) is easy enough, it's the person describing, and the x3 (terski) is the audience. The x2 (selski) is the thing being described, which could be anything at all, as anything can be described somehow. The x4 (velski) is the only possibly tricky one, the description. It's listed as a quality, as opposed to say a sedu'u, which to me suggests that you can also skicu something without using words. So to skicu something, you somehow reveal or illustrate one or more of its properties to someone. As far as what flavor that gives to a sumti using "le", this is my impression, based on how people have been using it: As a skicu, you have a particular something in mind, the selski, that you're describing to the terski. You're describing it to the terski by showing them one particular quality, the velski, but that's probably not the only quality of the selski that you know or have in mind. Often the selski is a particular instance, something concrete, but even if it's abstract it is usually a somewhat rich abstraction in your (the skicu's) mind. For instance it would be more likely to be something like "the sort of apple that I'd like to eat", where you could describe it to a listener as having various qualities, such as "being an apple" and "not being rotten" and "being delicious" and "not belonging to anyone else so that I won't get in trouble for eating it", etc., as opposed to just a truly generic abstract "apple" with no other qualities. It does not entirely matter though exactly what "skicu" means, if that worries you, because there is no circumstance at all where you NEED to implicitly assert that you skicu by saying "le". You can simply go ahead and use "lo" all the time-- it's never ever wrong. And that is indeed what every Lojban teacher that I know of tells their students to do, and that is also what I recommend to you. > One thing to remember is that Nora and I used pre-xorlo in Lojban for aro= und > 20 years, and Nora used the TLI Loglan articles for around a decade befor= e > that. =A0Our usage was ingrained, habitual, fluent (at least with regard = to > choosing articles). I feel safe in saying that I speak for almost everyone here when I say that we would much rather hear Lojban with funny articles from you than silence! We don't even pay any attention to what articles people use anymore. :) >=A0Unlearning for us is non-trivial - I still on occasion use the gismu "g= umri", > even though it was eliminated more than 15 years ago. So do I! In fact I teach "gumri" to my students. I teach them the history of the word, of course, and that they shouldn't usually use it, because it "doesn't exist" even though we all actually know it! :D Some other words that "don't exist" that I teach my students (because they'll actually encounter them in Lojbanistan, going around not existing) include laldo, kibro, zvero, nuzlo, lo'ai sa'ai le'ai, la'oi... > (All three LogFlash programs were produced, and still exist, but I think > only Nora and I ever used the cmavo program to mastery, and only I used t= he > rafsi/lujvo program, and not to the point of mastery.) I first learned the gismu from LogFlash, but I only tried the other versions a few times. > I dunno if it exists or even is possible, but a constantly available and > updating IRC log, where one would log in and see the last couple of pages= of > discussion, regardless of how-long-ago it took place, would help, This is exactly how IRC works. It's a beautiful, harmoniously balanced, elegant model. Unfortunately it is also deeply geeky, so the elegance is not immediately apparent, hidden as it is behind an entirely mysterious interface-- a geek's idea of elegance, after all, almost never includes visible, clearly-labeled controls. :) Unfortunately IRC is also such a geeky idea that to use it properly requires you have a computer always running-- to some I suppose that seems only as onerous a requirement as that you have electricity or running water. :) Even while you're not there, your computer is always "idling" in the IRC channel, receiving all of the messages for you. At any time you can come to the computer and check the channel, and the most recent messages will be ready for you, regardless of how long ago they were. It's not expected that you'll read all of the "backlog", as it's called, but it is expected that you'll skim it for mentions of your own name, which your IRC client will helpfully highlight for you. If people in the channel want to bring something to your attention, they mention your name, perhaps just saying "hey, read this conversation we just had, above". They can tell that your computer is saving the messages for you, because they can see your name in the list of users in the channel. It's also fine to drop in on a channel for a while, chat, and then leave again. People who happen to be there at the time can read your messages and respond to them, but also other people might read them later when they read their backlog, and you can mention particular people's usernames to make sure they notice what you said. Anyway IRC totally isn't for everything or everyone. Especially these days, there's a lot of other options. For instance Twitter is another chatty medium, and everything said there is immediately on the web, so that's useful in some ways. I like to follow this search for instance, which isn't hard to keep up with at all: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=3Dlojban It's cool because not only do you see Lojbanists' tweets to #lojban, but also there's usually a funny comment or two in there every day from some random stranger finding out about Lojban and saying what they think of it! Here's the latest: "CorentinGallet: @CorentinGallet Korean is GREAT. And Lojban is supposed to be HIGLY SUPERIOR. Doesn't matter. I'm speaking in Caml." .u'i mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.