From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCDw4zeBBoEP78Dzg@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 12 06:35:23 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1JnJ-0005k4-RB; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:35:22 -0700 Received: by vws6 with SMTP id 6sf567024vws.16 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:35:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pVwsUb73tVu8mpC1wNAzy44f5fzqzRe1RK6Z84Tww7M=; b=youtlh/M2Iv4LgN8YbcBJTjjZUR1N9/+5xShVL1+Mjsov2QMFvOm6ox8JJaGaHtcnl sIPmzUDHYIZFdw3ALu56QWs77h56FteYGz/ZTjwqgveGx8W6dEzGlkYrbliuCNeJGD0Q DYoxKpd5/Afd8n64CNJF0PW9s33hoicivlUFA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=6b+/Bc22482Z9PmJ/YReJ6wzclGp4kpSvCrLSi2cZTVFQx2IqojkZyIKia3lKA6dGP UTY633cdsLwDvA8FbNJ2BarcaP4zfge1kV7iEh9oOkEAQAYG7OyOaxWev2rCIDOL/IdY d86huOFjzvHvvLWwx+epHoygK3muJtJiUL1JM= Received: by 10.220.47.158 with SMTP id n30mr307978vcf.47.1271079299620; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:34:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls727113vcf.5.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.99.148 with SMTP id u20mr875953vcn.18.1271079297692; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.99.148 with SMTP id u20mr875952vcn.18.1271079297667; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 27si11446498vws.5.2010.04.12.06.34.57; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 38022 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Apr 2010 13:34:57 -0000 Message-ID: <152629.37890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 01bA2wgVM1lycwKvIEVt2eU.bcr4FWFMwjIqSFR6V7wq7TU Bf0s3SzX79AtJK3t1.5KULT9ek4Vk3VDnaSoii4Bipm_gAN8AdvrCNBEQSKc l5.zYoRLqfmpolHwvWsPzTrG2qaPXe_Mv4slLHF2_CfxsPe.Abia7ETK8fEp uQqabmCyVFnrx_bbJXfeWv5so3biJ2Hftms.fGWpf7AglVwfgdmr1TjV9Zjp MMyhGXhyqwQNHCeYRwmj2W7aJsrVt3BSUgzytK3ErVUsdJf0JYA9pp7Rg4KM ADa9Jx4QZWrjsCaTu97em7WatXk3hbWbYuFHfeWMMLx.1Ax5C.dKMDs1VYUW VENeaCT2q0zdNs0UBH8n0Wv8iecfNoD_4Qz9w Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:34:56 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 06:34:56 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/1b305468a81aca Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since none of this sounds familiar from my memory of the discussion a coupl= e of years ago, let me try to summarize in my frame of reference: 'le broda' refers to something(s) I have in mind and am calling brodas with= the hope that you will pick out the right thing. Thus, it always has a re= ferent, though that may not actually be a broda. Having gotten rid of oblig= atory though implicit quantifiers, we can still say that there is at least = one such object and that the expression unadorned refers to all of them col= lectively. 'lo broda' refers to some thing(s) that actually broda. Which ones is dete= rmined contextually in a broad sense. Again there is at least on referent a= nd the expression refers to all of them collectively. 'lei broda' introduces a fairly unclear notion of a mass, but otherwise beh= aves like 'le broda', that is the mass is of things I'm calling brodas, whe= ther they are or not. At the best interpretation, masses are L-sets and so= behave exactly like the members collectively. I suppose there is some dif= ference in the way quantifiers are used with the two expressions, but that'= s a later issue. 'loi broda' is the same with the exception that the things actually are bro= das, OK so far? ----- Original Message ---- From: Stela Selckiku To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, April 12, 2010 1:20:00 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Robert LeChevalier wro= te: > > Nora would have to speak for herself, but her misgivings extend to the ol= d > loi/lei pair (and I won't pretend to know any more, because I have no ide= a > what xorlo did to them). Simplified them. Made them comprehensible. Made them immediately, basically obvious. And if it wasn't xorlo that made Lojban's articles so simple that they are immediately obvious, well then, SOMETHING did, because now they are. The only and entire distinction between lo and loi is that the latter is a mass. Specifically, "loi broda" means exactly "lo gunma be lo broda", a mass composed of broda. All usages of "loi" could in fact be systematically rewritten as phrases using "lo" and "gunma". For instance "loi remna cu bevri lo pipno", the (mass of) humans carry the piano, is exactly equivalent to "lo gunma be lo remna cu bevri lo pipno", a mass whose components are humans carries the piano. The distinction between lo/loi and le/lei is a separate and equally simple distinction. In this case in the deep structure the meaning is accomplished by "skicu", describe. So "le broda" transforms to "zo'e noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda", something which I describe it to you as being broda. The only extent therefore to which the meaning of "le" is still uncertain is the extent to which we have not nailed down the meaning of "skicu". Here is how I understand it: The x1 (skicu) is easy enough, it's the person describing, and the x3 (terski) is the audience. The x2 (selski) is the thing being described, which could be anything at all, as anything can be described somehow. The x4 (velski) is the only possibly tricky one, the description. It's listed as a quality, as opposed to say a sedu'u, which to me suggests that you can also skicu something without using words. So to skicu something, you somehow reveal or illustrate one or more of its properties to someone. As far as what flavor that gives to a sumti using "le", this is my impression, based on how people have been using it: As a skicu, you have a particular something in mind, the selski, that you're describing to the terski. You're describing it to the terski by showing them one particular quality, the velski, but that's probably not the only quality of the selski that you know or have in mind. Often the selski is a particular instance, something concrete, but even if it's abstract it is usually a somewhat rich abstraction in your (the skicu's) mind. For instance it would be more likely to be something like "the sort of apple that I'd like to eat", where you could describe it to a listener as having various qualities, such as "being an apple" and "not being rotten" and "being delicious" and "not belonging to anyone else so that I won't get in trouble for eating it", etc., as opposed to just a truly generic abstract "apple" with no other qualities. It does not entirely matter though exactly what "skicu" means, if that worries you, because there is no circumstance at all where you NEED to implicitly assert that you skicu by saying "le". You can simply go ahead and use "lo" all the time-- it's never ever wrong. And that is indeed what every Lojban teacher that I know of tells their students to do, and that is also what I recommend to you. > One thing to remember is that Nora and I used pre-xorlo in Lojban for aro= und > 20 years, and Nora used the TLI Loglan articles for around a decade befor= e > that. Our usage was ingrained, habitual, fluent (at least with regard to > choosing articles). I feel safe in saying that I speak for almost everyone here when I say that we would much rather hear Lojban with funny articles from you than silence! We don't even pay any attention to what articles people use anymore. :) > Unlearning for us is non-trivial - I still on occasion use the gismu "gum= ri", > even though it was eliminated more than 15 years ago. So do I! In fact I teach "gumri" to my students. I teach them the history of the word, of course, and that they shouldn't usually use it, because it "doesn't exist" even though we all actually know it! :D Some other words that "don't exist" that I teach my students (because they'll actually encounter them in Lojbanistan, going around not existing) include laldo, kibro, zvero, nuzlo, lo'ai sa'ai le'ai, la'oi... > (All three LogFlash programs were produced, and still exist, but I think > only Nora and I ever used the cmavo program to mastery, and only I used t= he > rafsi/lujvo program, and not to the point of mastery.) I first learned the gismu from LogFlash, but I only tried the other versions a few times. > I dunno if it exists or even is possible, but a constantly available and > updating IRC log, where one would log in and see the last couple of pages= of > discussion, regardless of how-long-ago it took place, would help, This is exactly how IRC works. It's a beautiful, harmoniously balanced, elegant model. Unfortunately it is also deeply geeky, so the elegance is not immediately apparent, hidden as it is behind an entirely mysterious interface-- a geek's idea of elegance, after all, almost never includes visible, clearly-labeled controls. :) Unfortunately IRC is also such a geeky idea that to use it properly requires you have a computer always running-- to some I suppose that seems only as onerous a requirement as that you have electricity or running water. :) Even while you're not there, your computer is always "idling" in the IRC channel, receiving all of the messages for you. At any time you can come to the computer and check the channel, and the most recent messages will be ready for you, regardless of how long ago they were. It's not expected that you'll read all of the "backlog", as it's called, but it is expected that you'll skim it for mentions of your own name, which your IRC client will helpfully highlight for you. If people in the channel want to bring something to your attention, they mention your name, perhaps just saying "hey, read this conversation we just had, above". They can tell that your computer is saving the messages for you, because they can see your name in the list of users in the channel. It's also fine to drop in on a channel for a while, chat, and then leave again. People who happen to be there at the time can read your messages and respond to them, but also other people might read them later when they read their backlog, and you can mention particular people's usernames to make sure they notice what you said. Anyway IRC totally isn't for everything or everyone. Especially these days, there's a lot of other options. For instance Twitter is another chatty medium, and everything said there is immediately on the web, so that's useful in some ways. I like to follow this search for instance, which isn't hard to keep up with at all: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=3Dlojban It's cool because not only do you see Lojbanists' tweets to #lojban, but also there's usually a funny comment or two in there every day from some random stranger finding out about Lojban and saying what they think of it! Here's the latest: "CorentinGallet: @CorentinGallet Korean is GREAT. And Lojban is supposed to be HIGLY SUPERIOR. Doesn't matter. I'm speaking in Caml." .u'i mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.