From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEN6-jd4EGgSAmpUJ@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 12 10:59:26 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f146.google.com ([209.85.222.146]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1Nuk-00059m-HH; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:59:24 -0700 Received: by pzk10 with SMTP id 10sf1230803pzk.25 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:59:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=Fl32bVEmhAQHbkHwnCKuyUtSPAnVGR0SKRyXHwiqHCI=; b=j1wSIy7LcigFk7NNnfaFhgdGzG6slPfyPC+gS1r88bxV3rRFg7DjlTjQS0Li9zaAed PrJIta+TAQJgwGnrsOW/szo/7HbJdFPzyEMpGFsiWrkBiMS7aFDih39Ybg8X4eyg0luJ 9dTSPhJ1GosKAMBPZEwiAVwfDmD7Oib2t0/LE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; b=LSvPxBv25ISEg978IbE/wKvVucSyGPDlFoISMnQGDz2vSwdpbXLs3niRQzZS+TeHJV tRzqdzJExenLum9c1E/m0VL9S2IVYiDH8iGnlJiSjRdgwiUSUBWbT6alGV9Pwn3cJfK7 2JPipPWFTXOyX0DtuA/dcsOaVmwBUAdXqLOOo= Received: by 10.140.83.37 with SMTP id g37mr406407rvb.29.1271095134795; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.255.17 with SMTP id c17ls1390006rvi.2.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.83.31 with SMTP id g31mr745575rvb.16.1271095132288; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.83.31 with SMTP id g31mr745574rvb.16.1271095132265; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail2.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.4]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si945944pzk.2.2010.04.12.10.58.52; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.4 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.4; Received: (qmail 17239 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2010 17:58:51 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail2.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 12 Apr 2010 17:58:51 -0000 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1NuL-00057q-Vn for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:58:50 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:58:49 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The efficacy of Lojban's grammar. Message-ID: <20100412175849.GP20647@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC08255.1000201@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4BC08255.1000201@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.4 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/236d00109f07c67f Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 02:51:17PM +0100, And Rosta wrote: > Robin Lee Powell, On 10/04/2010 04:59: > >On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:15:11AM +0100, And Rosta wrote: > >>Probably the most fundamentally unnatural and perhaps even > >>'uncognizable' part of Lojban is the formal grammar. The > >>structures of the formal grammar are nothing like those found in > >>natural languages. And I rather doubt whether anybody does or > >>can internalize the formal grammar as part of learning and using > >>Lojban; > > > >When I'm in practice, my statements pass the formal parser (mine, > >not the official on) on the order of 95 times out of a hundred. > >I'd wager real money on that. > > > >Certainly 8 or 9 out of 10 is true for all the serious speakers > >on IRC. > > > >I'm really not sure what you're on about here. > > I don't doubt that the great majority of expert Lojban speakers' > utterances are passed as licit by the formal parser. But I do > doubt that the licitness of those utterances is due to the Lojban > speaker having internalized the formal grammar and making active > use of it during sentence processing. That is certainly my internal experience. > I wager that syntactic structures that would be assigned to Lojban > sentences by (1) syntacticians and (2) Lojban speakers would > differ very substantially from the syntactic structures assigned > by the formal grammar. I can't speak to (1), but my structures would differ significantly only by missing parts. > The situation is rather as though human speakers when faced with > an impossibly inhuman grammar construct internally an entirely > new, human language with approximately equivalent weak generative > capacity (i.e. gives thumbs up and down to the same candidate > sentences as the formal grammar does). I think you're full of shit, and I'd appreciate it if you would not continue to try to tell me what goes on in my head. -Robin -- They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.