From 3LBm1SwwJBkYiliuoizzqo20ouiqt.kwutwrjivowwotmozw2x0.kwu@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 01 15:08:07 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f154.google.com ([209.85.221.154]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3LBm1SwwJBkYiliuoizzqo20ouiqt.kwutwrjivowwotmozw2x0.kwu@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxSYU-0003NZ-Bh for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:08:07 -0700 Received: by qyk26 with SMTP id 26sf3897675qyk.12 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:07:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=GlfPa9YMlzb3IXz4ixC0hNCMigjFFS58rs7Z8uUcjLY=; b=XDBKK5anP64OED9ryij24N+z5456pYmQmYYswuNJIBrQ9bl2yf4g9dSIJSz/vAKgRQ nox34qyRZZVUWz+CEwtWw9Eu/J7nD+l3QLSbQYZ6duJ72jG4o0bd/MYjHj50amG0qeXa lpe+RS7Roujzaw6eFVgZ5LCCiFVGBcABiDXN4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=l2Y4eZY7Lma/BBgU11x6dL3qy3mDY5exsocTuZtcHWb6OtSyMv1l2t/TiajQJN1wSC YINJvf81BHUFLCqx3VjVq5zcfWiiiCNRaS95nTsVcft+OFwCOddKiTjv6L6pGADqNU2r Hl7wBbkWJma3dB3RYTtuougy0DPDmYFnW7Zt4= Received: by 10.224.105.105 with SMTP id s41mr36307qao.17.1270159660617; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:07:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.92.132 with SMTP id r4ls452826qam.1.p; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.79.209 with SMTP id q17mr91057qak.25.1270159659358; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.79.209 with SMTP id q17mr91056qak.25.1270159659292; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f49.google.com (mail-vw0-f49.google.com [209.85.212.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si871161qyk.6.2010.04.01.15.07.38; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.49; Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so28354vws.8 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:07:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.74.136 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:07:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:07:37 -0400 Received: by 10.220.128.100 with SMTP id j36mr770132vcs.155.1270159657930; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamgarrigus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: adamgarrigus@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/ed6f75f900a40833 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b2ad1c3811a80483341737 --001636b2ad1c3811a80483341737 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Christopher Doty wrot= e: > This was brought up before, but I don't know that it was closed "closed" > exactly. As I said earlier today, though, using the autonyms directly > creates any number of problems, one of which could even be the claim that > doing so makes these words more culturally biased than the international > standard. I disagree. If the Finns call their language 'suomen', I place more weight on that than on what other people call it. I mean, how do we do this with autonyms? You have "portugala," presumably > for Portuguese, but far closer to the autonym would be "portugese" or > "portugesa." > That struck me as derivative from the name of the country, but I'm not sure= . {portugesa} is better to me than {portine}. > What about groups that don't have names for their languages? > In those cases, an exonym is fine. Although if they have a name for the group, maybe use that? What about places where the language is called two or three different > things? Which do we use? > Any or all of them. > Do we keep the "ki-" prefixes, along with their variants, for all of the > Bantu languages? If so, then why not keep the "lingua" with "lingua > latina"? > I would dispense with those as derivative, but again, that's not the point I'm making. > What about, for example, the Athabaskan languages, where the autonym is > nearly always "people's (language)," and the languages are close enough t= hat > we'd have to figure out how to distinguish 20 words which are all somethi= ng > like "dene" and remember which goes with which. What do we do in Mexico, > where speakers of completely unrelated languages often call their languag= e > "mexicano"? Do we just have "mexkano" for all of these 20 languages? > Exonyms for these. > The only thing I can see that we get with the autonyms is that they are t= he > autonyms, but we get a whole bunch of other issues; I'm just not sure it'= s > worth it. I'm willing to be persuaded*, but no one has really argued for > autonyms for any particular reason.. > So I overstated my case; clearly we can't use autonyms for all languages. Perhaps there is a general opinion that it is desirable to use the same method for devising words for all languages. I would disagree with that & argue that it's better to use autonyms where you can (the majority? the vas= t majority?), and exonyms otherwise. But I'm not here to stand in the way of progress. Is there, actually, an argument for including the ISO code for the language family? Because I still can't wrap my brain around that. And I'd like to. (And that is my main point, which I failed to make clear earlier.) mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 14:20, komfo,amonan wrote: > >> IMHO I can't see any reason to not base such words wholly on the autonym= , >> eschewing the ISO codes, especially considering that we have, for the fi= rst >> time in history, the ability to easily access the autonyms of 99% of the >> world's ethnicities & languages. And also since that second code is mere= ly >> an abbreviation of the language family, which doesn't seem like a sensib= le >> candidate for inclusion in the fu'ivla. >> >> I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read every word= . >> So if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I apologize. >> Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if the language n= ame >> derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latter, but that's= not >> the point I'm making): >> >> portugala >> po'olska >> .arxabi >> .argona >> ba'anla >> bamnana >> kernoue >> ko'orsu >> dzo'onxa >> >> mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Christopher Doty w= rote: >> >>> Alright, so, here are some revised/reconcocted fu'ivla for languages. = I >>> decided that there wasn't really a good way to go about standardizing h= ow >>> the two codes fits into the fu'ivla, but the main one was that, if you = have >>> a seven-letter fu'ivla, you get an extra C or V, and that seems like it >>> should be based on the autonym (or at least the source for the ISO code= ), >>> and not just a random consonant. >>> >>> I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't necessarily feel ver= y >>> strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even though a bit o= f >>> opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO codes. For the >>> letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a code and as the sound /k= /, I >>> changed the "c" to "ck," which represents both the writing and the soun= d, >>> plus making an easy, freebie cluster. "C"s pronounced as "ch" became "= tc," >>> although in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-letter ISO = code. >>> When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I left is "c." >>> >>> fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family) >>> portine - Portuguese (Portugu=C3=AAs/por/ine) >>> polsine - Polish (polski/pol/ine) >>> .arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/afa) >>> .argo'ine - Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s/arg/ine) >>> bengine - Bengali (=E0=A6=AC=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=82=E0=A6=B2=E0=A6=BE [=CB= =88ba=C5=8Bla]/ben/ine) >>> bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan) >>> ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine) >>> ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine) >>> dzositV - Dzongkha (=E0=BD=A2=E0=BE=AB=E0=BD=BC=E0=BD=84=E0=BC=8B=E0=BD= =81/dzo/sit) >>> Etc. >>> >>> How do this look to people? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Doty wr= ote: >>> >>>> Yeah, it might not end up working; or, rather, it might have to be a >>>> more general, to say, for example, that all of the fu'ivla for languag= es >>>> will be of eight letters (or something), but without any reference to = a >>>> specific structure... >>>> >>>> I'll poke at it and see what pops out. >>>> >>>> 2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas >>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > So, for example, if the language ISO code is >>>>> > CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'ivla= , >>>>> etc., >>>>> > for each of the possible combinations. >>>>> >>>>> The immediate problem I see there is that the CC has high chances of >>>>> not being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster. >>>>> >>>>> If it's just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in >>>>> front to get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's more of a >>>>> problem. >>>>> >>>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636b2ad1c3811a80483341737 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wro= te:
This was brought up before, but I don't know that it was closed "c= losed" exactly. =C2=A0As I said earlier today, though, using the auton= yms directly creates any number of problems, one of which could even be the= claim that doing so makes these words more culturally biased than the inte= rnational standard.

I disagree. If the Finns call their language 'suomen', I p= lace more weight on that than on what other people call it.

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 2= 04, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I mean, how do we do this with autonyms? =C2=A0You have "portugal= a," presumably for Portuguese, but far closer to the autonym would be = "portugese" or "portugesa."
That struck me as derivative from the name of the country, but I'm not = sure. {portugesa} is better to me than {portine}.
=C2=A0
What about groups that don't have names for their languages? =C2= =A0

=C2=A0In those cases, an exonym is fine. Alt= hough if they have a name for the group, maybe use that?

What about places where the language is called two or three different = things? =C2=A0Which do we use? =C2=A0

Any or all= of them.
=C2=A0
Do we keep the "ki-" prefixes, along with their variants, fo= r all of the Bantu languages? =C2=A0If so, then why not keep the "ling= ua" with "lingua latina"? =C2=A0

= I would dispense with those as derivative, but again, that's not the po= int I'm making.
=C2=A0
<= div>What about, for example, the Athabaskan languages, where the autonym is= nearly always "people's (language)," and the languages are c= lose enough that we'd have to figure out how to distinguish 20 words wh= ich are all something like "dene" and remember which goes with wh= ich. =C2=A0What do we do in Mexico, where speakers of completely unrelated = languages often call their language "mexicano"? =C2=A0Do we just = have "mexkano" for all of these 20 languages?

Exonyms for these.
=C2=A0
The only thing I can see that we get with the autonyms is that they ar= e the autonyms, but we get a whole bunch of other issues; I'm just not = sure it's worth it. =C2=A0I'm willing to be persuaded*, but no one = has really argued for autonyms for any particular reason..

So I overstated my case; clearly we can't use aut= onyms for all languages. Perhaps there is a general opinion that it is desi= rable to use the same method for devising words for all languages. I would = disagree with that & argue that it's better to use autonyms where y= ou can (the majority? the vast majority?), and exonyms otherwise. But I'= ;m not here to stand in the way of progress.

Is there, actually, an argument for including the ISO code for the lang= uage family? Because I still can't wrap my brain around that. And I'= ;d like to. (And that is my main point, which I failed to make clear earlie= r.)

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

=C2=A0
On Thu, Apr= 1, 2010 at 14:20, komfo,amonan <komfoamonan@gmail.com> = wrote:
IMHO I can't see any reason to not base such words wholly on the autony= m, eschewing the ISO codes, especially considering that we have, for the fi= rst time in history, the ability to easily access the autonyms of 99% of th= e world's ethnicities & languages. And also since that second code = is merely an abbreviation of the language family, which doesn't seem li= ke a sensible candidate for inclusion in the fu'ivla.

I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read e= very word. So if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I = apologize. Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if th= e language name derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latte= r, but that's not the point I'm making):

portugala
po'olska
.arxabi
.argona
ba'anla
bamna= na
kernoue
ko'orsu
dzo'onxa

mu'o mi'e komfo= ,amonan


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
=
Alright, so, here are some revised/reconcocted fu'ivla = for languages. =C2=A0I decided that there wasn't really a good way to g= o about standardizing how the two codes fits into the fu'ivla, but the = main one was that, if you have a seven-letter fu'ivla, you get an extra= C or V, and that seems like it should be based on the autonym (or at least= the source for the ISO code), and not just a random consonant.

I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't neces= sarily feel very strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even t= hough a bit of opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO code= s. =C2=A0For the letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a c= ode and as the sound /k/, I changed the "c" to "ck," wh= ich represents both the writing and the sound, plus making an easy, freebie= cluster. =C2=A0"C"s pronounced as "ch" became "tc= ," although in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-let= ter ISO code. =C2=A0When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I lef= t is "c."

fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family= )
portine - Portuguese (Portugu=C3=AAs/por/ine)
polsine= - Polish (polski/pol/ine)
.arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/= afa)
.argo'ine - Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s/arg/ine)
bengine - Be= ngali (=E0=A6=AC=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=82=E0= =A6=B2=E0=A6=BE [=CB=88ba=C5=8Bla]/ben/ine)
bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan)
ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine)
ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine)
=
dzositV - Dzongkha (=E0=BD=A2=E0=BE=AB=E0=BD=BC= =E0=BD=84=E0=BC=8B=E0=BD=81/dzo/sit)
Etc.

How do this look to people?

Chris

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Do= ty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, it might not end up working; or, rather, it might have to be a more g= eneral, to say, for example, that all of the fu'ivla for languages will= be of eight letters (or something), but without any reference to a specifi= c structure...

I'll poke at it and see what pops out.

2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.co= m>
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote= :

> =C2=A0=C2=A0So, for example, if the language ISO code is
> CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'= ;ivla, etc.,
> for each of the possible combinations.

The immediate problem I see there is= that the CC has high chances of
not being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster.

If it's just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in front to get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's mor= e of a
problem.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--001636b2ad1c3811a80483341737--