From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEOfGjd4EGgQXXEqQ@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 12 11:17:56 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f146.google.com ([209.85.222.146]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1OCl-0006xQ-RD; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:17:56 -0700 Received: by pzk10 with SMTP id 10sf1235228pzk.25 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:17:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=xSponBbX39FK9KVISkMxV/r27ZQ1/4GDMn8W3sDZGyw=; b=ZLSkPAvWmNJailrA6hR7B6u30LcQBWQ7JN06r2XhNjylF5gqYrkNkjnTxbXH05bqhe n4bay1I6+kiny/Av5NI449rWY5YtBpQDkAKB2c7svHpqWxFRIJGBe1Pw9r+KRuspdWTV PN8q6QHRg1bd3u92DdfVMjy5lEOmAk1wQYZP4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; b=aGsmG67aVE+h6pkApWGeGciv2MFrKxWv7NgvqEMym7MyXN2DI7l59CVixv3ZDZk2QJ UsCPVH1cq7pbY2nXbnPWEbBMVz9W5xpa3qSdd64yFI3RRb3vbPqW7RBxIBnTrRLFyBX0 Rz1LeiAnmSFnegLDNFJ30oKK6ZkoxVoF06CxI= Received: by 10.141.187.38 with SMTP id o38mr404336rvp.24.1271096232352; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.141.187.12 with SMTP id o12ls1402368rvp.0.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.124.2 with SMTP id b2mr748903rvn.27.1271096162408; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.124.2 with SMTP id b2mr748902rvn.27.1271096162386; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.5]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si936915pzk.8.2010.04.12.11.16.02; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.5 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.5; Received: (qmail 12563 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2010 18:16:01 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 12 Apr 2010 18:16:01 -0000 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1OAw-0006r9-TV for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:15:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:15:58 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The efficacy of Lojban's grammar. Message-ID: <20100412181558.GQ20647@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC08255.1000201@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.5 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/c73263c75013c6fb Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 10:47:56AM -0400, Kevin Reid wrote: > In particular, the trees have a huge number of nodes which pertain > only to the implementation structure of the grammar and are both > redundant and unrelated to the semantics of Lojban. This falls out > from the fact that the parser produces one tree node per > nonterminal, named according to that nonterminal, unconditionally: > no appropriate specialized actions/transformations have been > defined. If *that* is what Andrew was talking about, I concede the point. As an exercise, a sentence grabbed from #lojban, which I will parse myself: ru'a so'i lo jbopre na ba jimpe No attempt to match the labels in the grammar. * marks terminals. This is from memory, without looking at anything for reference. utterance -> free -> ru'a * -> sentence -> front-bit [1] -> sumti -> quantifier -> so'i * -> gadri-and-friends -> gadri -> lo * -> bridi-tail [2] -> selbri -> jbopre * -> bridi-tail [2] -> negator-and-friends -> negator -> na * -> negated bits -> tense -> ba * -> selbri -> jimpe * The actual parse tree, from camxes: text |- CMAVO | UI: ru'a |- sentence |- sumti5 | |- CMAVO | | PA: so'i | |- sumti6 | |- CMAVO | | LE: lo | |- BRIVLA | lujvo: jbopre |- selbri1 |- CMAVO | NA: na |- selbri |- time | |- CMAVO | | PU: ba |- BRIVLA gismu: jimpe That's camxes in collapse-singletons mode. I don't see any significant difference. Now, if the claim is that my internal parse tree doesn't look like the *full* parse tree, then I concur wholeheartedly and apologize for my hostility; see the full parse tree below -Robin [1]: There's a special non-terminal for, basically, "the stuff before the selbri". I freely admit that I wouldn't know about it if I hadn't worked on the PEG. [2]: I freely admit that I wouldn't know about this if I hadn't worked on the PEG. Full parse tree: text |- textPart2 | indicators | indicator | UIClause | UIPre | UI | CMAVO | UI: ru'a |- text1 paragraphs paragraph statement ... statement3 sentence |- terms ... | terms2 | term | term1 | sumti ... | sumti5 | |- quantifier | | number | | PAClause | | PAPre | | PA | | CMAVO | | PA: so'i | |- sumti6 | |- LEClause | | LEPre | | LE | | CMAVO | | LE: lo | |- sumtiTail | sumtiTail1 | selbri ... | selbri6 | tanruUnit ... | tanruUnit2 | BRIVLAClause | BRIVLAPre | BRIVLA | BRIVLA | lujvo: jbopre |- bridiTail ... bridiTail3 selbri selbri1 |- NAClause | NAPre | NA | CMAVO | NA: na |- selbri |- tag | tenseModal | simpleTenseModal | time | |- timeOffset | | PUClause | | PUPre | | PU | | CMAVO | | PU: ba | |- timeOffset | PUClause | PUPre | PU | CMAVO | PU: ba |- selbri1 ... selbri6 tanruUnit ... tanruUnit2 BRIVLAClause BRIVLAPre BRIVLA BRIVLA gismu: jimpe -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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