From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDryI3eBBoEW0zh8Q@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 12 11:20:51 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1OFZ-0007CC-LK; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:50 -0700 Received: by gwb17 with SMTP id 17sf92743gwb.16 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SYYnT41caqhm0iGDS1/YZnZGZvC1qfBTcpIonBh48TI=; b=oMfakrKKeQ2ckDY6UHKPe3dR8q0X4VMjxFTQ0GZ96vOFAbQ4MKO3Yrszcslv/sitYo w7PLYcKs0UupRy9lU+vEojuNiniGzP8hOP8ag1f386afMU+NAUUN3c3Pj4zWsajYtDA0 iiECD1JmPpQg/4nuXKWNQSuKOkuaYRs0gaDNI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WmLcK3Rz6U4rnNmj+PrmEZ7NEPuIKStPHyggYnhzK3+WRmT0QQNxde5vhc7GuDUVGN KRq79zGyeNqNdQhunGElavf+YsqA45c5q72Zz0aMgTP0yVvXcI7Gzi5MSr0eQXIySczw YLDC7sQnWmmKOm26h/SD51nUEgH7t0xvJnGMg= Received: by 10.150.247.5 with SMTP id u5mr157906ybh.25.1271096427855; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.32.206 with SMTP id e14ls1815772bkd.2.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr343313bkx.2.1271096424935; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.163.19 with SMTP id y19mr343312bkx.2.1271096424870; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f217.google.com (mail-bw0-f217.google.com [209.85.218.217]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si444949bwz.8.2010.04.12.11.20.23; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.217 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.217; Received: by bwz9 with SMTP id 9so4486593bwz.9 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.34.81 with SMTP id k17mr5172599bkd.78.1271096421924; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5sm39763356bkd.19.2010.04.12.11.20.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:20:20 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: [lojban] {le} in xorlo (was: Re: Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.217 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/33bf71d2546e7 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stela Selckiku, On 12/04/2010 07:20: > The distinction between lo/loi and le/lei is a separate and equally > simple distinction. In this case in the deep structure the meaning is > accomplished by "skicu", describe. So "le broda" transforms to "zo'e > noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda", something which I describe it > to you as being broda. After some googling I found , and while the informal definition of E gadri as specific is as expected,= this formal definition seems erroneous, for two reasons. The first is that= "zo'e noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda" does not encode specificity (= aka referentiality). The second is that the contents of the noi phrase fall= within the truth-conditions of the containing bridi. You could probably ar= gue that this is trivial, because "mi ke'a do skicu" is true by virtue of b= eing uttered, so affects the truth-conditions vacuously, but that performat= ivity is not encoded, so "mi ke'a do skicu" is not in fact true by virtue o= f being uttered, so is not truth-conditionally inert. I'd have thought the = second problem could have been remedied by using "voi" rather than "noi", t= hough I expect this must have been considered and rejected for some reason,= and it still leaves the first problem. I'm also wondering whether there exists an experimental specific KOhA, a no= nanaphoric "it/them". (I think I used to use "le du" in lieu of such.) If t= here were, then E gadri could be defined as "zo'e'e voi ke'a broda", no? (w= here zo'e'e is the specific KOhA). (I don't see any such cmavo in . But I did find t= here the brilliant UI "bua'a'a", 'Before I kill you I will explain my maste= r plan'.) --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.