From lojban+bncCK30vq5WELrUjd4EGgQXjwJj@googlegroups.com Mon Apr 12 11:45:54 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1OdX-0000Qq-2X; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:53 -0700 Received: by pvb32 with SMTP id 32sf1710846pvb.16 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=KQy98CHhj+/w0mUrzX+8M2PPKQl62so9YIn/YTG6GDI=; b=FQ76cxAVxUaAxcL8u6IU4taj3ND5ss9wlvdL9NmLBH3FskBh65tyzkHfq3hsCWkwqo vqzouF1mmEAqmFTnXfBnbF4NLOrs9dKm3mbpyA5QNR/0RMWjYPyDxvmfHiL1jwSoKSNH LkLk9/kCq3Fh/n3ZcspxexRu4wcHlnGUH0UN8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; b=SAYO8npKHWsq+6tdonN93t0up4QpojqrTyl/zuihbcGEYKYdsjXFbIpTowIQgdvVfG /XUq/HyDVY6BVceBgI5F/exvh46Lf8KTn/W/Bk4AQaWnMf2oFjfEG1m+Zni11jC7OCvR 3VAjYtxzVqighJsK7J3jddmrh2tw0HneYHBWk= Received: by 10.142.248.35 with SMTP id v35mr245928wfh.47.1271097914832; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.8.28 with SMTP id 28ls1001099wfh.0.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.55.19 with SMTP id d19mr769909wfa.6.1271097912610; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.55.19 with SMTP id d19mr769908wfa.6.1271097912575; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si940175pzk.13.2010.04.12.11.45.12; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) client-ip=69.17.117.9; Received: (qmail 19974 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2010 18:45:12 -0000 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 12 Apr 2010 18:45:12 -0000 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O1Od4-0000Nx-B0 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:02 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:45:02 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The efficacy of Lojban's grammar. Message-ID: <20100412184502.GS20647@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC08255.1000201@gmail.com> <20100412175849.GP20647@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20100412175849.GP20647@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.17.117.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/bb863460d40e6640 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:58:49AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 02:51:17PM +0100, And Rosta wrote: > > Robin Lee Powell, On 10/04/2010 04:59: > > >On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:15:11AM +0100, And Rosta wrote: > > >>Probably the most fundamentally unnatural and perhaps even > > >>'uncognizable' part of Lojban is the formal grammar. The > > >>structures of the formal grammar are nothing like those found > > >>in natural languages. And I rather doubt whether anybody does > > >>or can internalize the formal grammar as part of learning and > > >>using Lojban; > > > > > >When I'm in practice, my statements pass the formal parser > > >(mine, not the official on) on the order of 95 times out of a > > >hundred. I'd wager real money on that. > > > > > >Certainly 8 or 9 out of 10 is true for all the serious speakers > > >on IRC. > > > > > >I'm really not sure what you're on about here. > > > > I don't doubt that the great majority of expert Lojban speakers' > > utterances are passed as licit by the formal parser. But I do > > doubt that the licitness of those utterances is due to the > > Lojban speaker having internalized the formal grammar and making > > active use of it during sentence processing. > > That is certainly my internal experience. > > > I wager that syntactic structures that would be assigned to Lojban > > sentences by (1) syntacticians and (2) Lojban speakers would > > differ very substantially from the syntactic structures assigned > > by the formal grammar. > > I can't speak to (1), but my structures would differ significantly > only by missing parts. Just for the record: I'm OK if I'm in the minority here (and if I *am* in the minority, then I think your point is made, so I guess I'm offering to concede). As long as the utterances of those people who don't use the formal grammar in their heads parses. In fact, what you're asserting dovetails very nicely with my comments about tiered learning materials; someone who has only read L4B will not, and should not, be parsing Lojban with anything like the formal grammar in their heads. So, sorry for my kneejerk hostility. :) -Robin -- They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something other than the default outcome?" See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.