From 3O3rDSwQOBsQknkwz4lm1k6vo1.y1qvytlkxqyyqvoq1y4z2.myw@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 12 12:53:56 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3O3rDSwQOBsQknkwz4lm1k6vo1.y1qvytlkxqyyqvoq1y4z2.myw@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1Phd-0005ac-42; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:56 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf7040341qyk.1 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from :to:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent :mime-version:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eydCBKDu+EW2z1p07rllkZYIVADaErI27N12GxSj2Ks=; b=BvopDgrX2ZHrJzefskitr1G/IPcWXxqd0AodMZYcY6mzyD7HO4wuchA4GluJSxw9YS PstSljF74nx9tfGw1h+XTnoY6IcC5XtM0dUmRABIpzrIFHkBePqHcvHBUSS5d1xedmtn onpL9Zzc5Wvc/yo2Pz1pB9XSE6kUDCgsKNE30= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to :message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PndSlU9el1+5aYdZ4WAUedqMBwJ+L90H1kbz/fcQpSdLakkrjPdZ0kmGLx9tIeDbGk PoY6XY4V7J2s4sW3d7PNAjIsRDx9mBvBwsBADCr/77j8S0OkB5UWEt0GvLSaGqEus6Bz 9bTQsJN5FxykuLe56yJucoEKEnm7LYBriYtCc= Received: by 10.224.84.205 with SMTP id k13mr230164qal.8.1271102011553; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.16.78 with SMTP id n14ls11389qaa.1.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.17.201 with SMTP id t9mr441825qaa.16.1271102009235; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.172.83 with SMTP id k19mr482004ibz.29.1271101636989; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.172.83 with SMTP id k19mr482003ibz.29.1271101636970; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cec.wustl.edu (express.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.21.16]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si634883iwn.10.2010.04.12.12.47.16; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) client-ip=128.252.21.16; Received: from grid.cec.wustl.edu (grid.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.20.97]) by mail.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09F51E8052; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:47:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: by grid.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix, from userid 29287) id 4F5631F7878; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:47:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grid.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419381F7836; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:47:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:47:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam D. Lopresto" To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The efficacy of Lojban's grammar. In-Reply-To: <20100412182123.GR20647@digitalkingdom.org> Message-ID: References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> <20100412182123.GR20647@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) smtp.mail=adam@pubcrawler.org X-Original-Sender: adam@pubcrawler.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6aa171969a4e7147 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 12 Apr 2010, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 06:53:53AM -0400, Stela Selckiku wrote: >> On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Robin Lee Powell >> wrote: >>> >>> When I'm in practice, my statements pass the formal parser >>> (mine, not the official on) on the order of 95 times out of a >>> hundred. =A0I'd wager real money on that. >>> >>> Certainly 8 or 9 out of 10 is true for all the serious speakers >>> on IRC. >> >> >> Agreed! >> >> It's quite easy actually to speak properly parsing Lojban. Most >> of the time it's entirely habitual, not so much using your >> understanding of the grammar directly, but rather >> pattern-recognizing a wide variety of familiar conventional forms. >> It's only rarely that you produce or encounter a sentence shape >> that dips into the complexities of the grammar to find something >> new. > > Just for the record, you just agreed with *arosta*, not with me. :) > > I was asserting that people actually *do* use the formal grammar > internally, and you're asserting you don't. > > I'm OK with being an exception on this, though, as long as what > people say still parses. :) I can't speak for whether you're an outlier or not, but I feel as though I work from an internal grammar as well. It is *certainly* not as detailed a= s the actual grammar (with all of its empty nodes and such), but it is very similar in its structure (and it is my intent to make it even closer). >> For instance I'm reminded of my recent joy at the phrase "lo melbi >> ko li'i cerni" (have a beautiful morning, or literally, be the >> experiencer of a beautiful experience of a morning). > > Oh, that *is* quite neat. Thanks! mu'i mi'e la xalbo ku noi finti de'u --=20 Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ By relieving the brain of all unnecessary work, a good notation sets it free to concentrate on more advanced problems, and in effect increases the mental power of the race. Before the introduction of the Arabic notation, multiplication was difficult, and the division even of integers called into play the highest mathematical faculties. Probably nothing in the modern world would have more astonished a Greek mathematician than to learn that...a large proportion of the population of Western Europe could perform the operation of division for the largest numbers. This fact would have seemed to him a sheer impossibility...our modern power of easy reckoning with decimal fractions is the almost miraculous result of gradual discovery of a perfect notation. --Alfred North Whitehead --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.