From 3UHrDSwoJBtkG9JN.HJG5NBH5DG.7JHGJE65IBJJBG9BMJPKN.7JH@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 12 12:54:22 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3UHrDSwoJBtkG9JN.HJG5NBH5DG.7JHGJE65IBJJBG9BMJPKN.7JH@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1Phx-0005cy-9z; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:54:21 -0700 Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3sf1858210pwi.16 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=zdeiVVISpEjpDbEutlDpkwGpROJIoCzifgRLnRSm3Tc=; b=RiwniClyBjiYjFafVpuXUIoR5cfuGNOB73QNZwoO7hw6xxRMbOrdjSH2iP6wKRANXW uzcaVVwH1J3hBVMZwSngVnlwI0b5GXmjP7UtrxmJTJVHNOj8G8Vr7AbeNAsFA81DxF7b TV1QEkAYIrXJvsxgzuX+GLrzexNTCi3iKULOU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version :content-type:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; b=IGysn2YHo69CWHqoZDGIZYxeiONFOm7vTw7gSVHWv5M5fpsY/AcRvS0H+DAUffM2zF JBFznGXaQMLcChVhH8+z5GNu32LWOEspwyDvFEqXKjkbVB6clNh64bZ2Hp9RfmXYAla5 hkvQ8347ESvOM5GlmYALo5oOTF/+nXEywFWZQ= Received: by 10.140.83.22 with SMTP id g22mr432156rvb.11.1271102032942; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.141.188.22 with SMTP id q22ls38089rvp.1.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.124.10 with SMTP id b10mr773520rvn.9.1271102030011; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.124.10 with SMTP id b10mr773519rvn.9.1271102029978; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f197.google.com (mail-pz0-f197.google.com [209.85.222.197]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si961865pzk.5.2010.04.12.12.53.48; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.222.197 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.222.197; Received: by pzk35 with SMTP id 35so38364pzk.3 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.108.9 with SMTP id k9mr4269685rvm.59.1271102028801; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([190.97.37.224]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a1sm2343661ibs.18.2010.04.12.12.53.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BC37A59.7070404@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:54:01 -0300 From: Leo Molas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; es-AR; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Cultural fu'ivla: summary and list of the ISO generated ones References: <4BBF505B.2050705@gmail.com> <4BBF83EC.2050402@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4BBF83EC.2050402@lojban.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig79879DC96BC2FEB8AD0F17AA" X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.222.197 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=leos.molas@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: leos.molas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f66e2fdee6af20a6 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/6ffc118c9ae486f1 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig79879DC96BC2FEB8AD0F17AA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El 09/04/2010 04:45 p.m., Bob LeChevalier escribi=F3: > Jonathan Jones wrote: >> 1) Having gismu for some cultures and not others is biased, and >> therefore violates the "culturally neutral" stance of Lojban. >=20 > Only in the same sense that basing the gismu-making process on only 6 o= f > the 12 most-spoken languages is culturally-biased, because it excludes > all the rest. This is not that accurate, since lojban doesn't sound like any of those. However, I don't think a guaran=ED speaker would be hurt by that; but not= having a gismu for Paraguay (and having one for argentina). >=20 > If one thinks only about gismu, then perhaps it is. If one considers > fu'ivla made from the name of the language/culture IN the language, the= n > we've more than neutralized that bias. Making fu'ivla like that would be the best; I've searched for a list with the languages names as said by natives, but I failed. That's why I thought of "ISO generated" as the best possible solution. >=20 > Gismu are shorter than fu'ivla, reflecting a presumption under Zipf's > law of higher usage frequency, and references by speakers to their own > language is a high frequency concept, so giving shorter words to > more-spoken languages is one form of cultural-neutrality. >=20 This is a good argument. However, it doesn't work for many many people from the other countries. >> The only >> acceptable solution to this is to either have a word for *all* >> cultures, or to not have a word for *any* of them. >=20 > We decided otherwise. This is not a good argument... >=20 >> 2) The cultural gismu basically have too many meanings. For example, >> {merko} means "x1 pertains to USA/American culture/nationality/dialect= >> in aspect x2". The solution to this is to=20 >=20 > ... make lujvo based on them. And in fu'ivla space, make culture words= > using the experimental space that allows fu'ivla to be made into rafsi > and combined with the gismu used with the cultural gismu to make lujvo.= >=20 > lojbab In this discussion, I've seen people who are against the cultural gismu, people who don't care about it, and conservatives that don't want to change a thing. But, besides what I marked IMO as a good argument, I haven't read much of those. I understand if there are people that won't like this change, but I think others that, like myself, don't like the cultural gismu, won't use them; we'll create fu'ivla, and encourage peers to use it. mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com --------------enig79879DC96BC2FEB8AD0F17AA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLw3pfAAoJEGPqAjdF26uEJ3QH/irl3rMhGKA0tL9Qyyb3QwCJ aPN1ZCVQOIbICAazZLQuFKm+YhjyF8FjzYliFZeMGAGpjs0NHivRb3yzxrRurv/d /WSmfxDXkXo6CfD6q1Yx7FosTAiXB+xUEnRodz5cl7UUfyOIy8frf0c/E35LUG95 9KjogFCcI0k2QfKyYJzH+F4bV4JlJuRuTuNBAow7tSQcZuCq9GPnMzEqZFIBiY6b ct7L6StH8Fz/z/PHeW/7EJDr7hMBlfc09IxcqCcpWaKPCNbA8+8lpFQvW4q141pk PdQ8AiZ/F0Ljgph0mYhYe3QSMbk3/GhubgzJqnt9aUJmH7FxD+CRS6Hz3+5vu8I= =29EP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig79879DC96BC2FEB8AD0F17AA--