From 3bJfDSwoJBhM2244t5u1tBz5t14.v75472ut6z77z4xzA7D8B.v75@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 12 14:58:31 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3bJfDSwoJBhM2244t5u1tBz5t14.v75472ut6z77z4xzA7D8B.v75@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1ReC-000871-7L; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:58:30 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf7198950qyk.1 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:58:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=ButItTqbAWX2CXkm/+ZdQF07yRK8TOkwqxgMeQw2J3s=; b=Lj6buaLUqX5UKksO2zjnJ0f/L6/+x9EIqjogVL2ZcpFhtT402RvYHl9OQsoBaop8Gt UjgKmg0fLc9WLkz2+gu0VraMd04y/FCMW+mOkR0agK/UsbOxa+mwPi3UVhGfkdRdYvfq KJ/9EqZsUkcOao6/XP3Ui1zgNZ8FHigsbn8mE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=RaazbnxKCrBbOydEA8nbcHmTLKOVRZwMrYwMZSFqGQFDgoAZOIonk521uwNegzRRsI LLGBydZv9RdtQYDWPCiIyrb4/sqp+G01qmesv4E6JtFzAfqWIC+rH7DM7P8O5EszwKd/ X4BLmwhvOZ+1PA96PIf70Z+9NVSBcfxrD5xGU= Received: by 10.229.125.21 with SMTP id w21mr151026qcr.33.1271109484369; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:58:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.10.160 with SMTP id p32ls38916qcp.2.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.227.83 with SMTP id iz19mr319614qcb.2.1271109482663; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.227.83 with SMTP id iz19mr319613qcb.2.1271109482621; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com (qw-out-1920.google.com [74.125.92.145]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si669529qyk.12.2010.04.12.14.58.01; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.145 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.92.145; Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so2094397qwk.52 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:58:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.212 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:57:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:57:59 -0300 Received: by 10.229.225.7 with SMTP id iq7mr4239092qcb.26.1271109479825; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {le} in xorlo (was: Re: Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.92.145 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/9fa2d7bec0982afa Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 3:20 PM, And Rosta wrote: > > After some googling I found > , and while the informal > definition of E gadri as specific is as expected, this formal definition > seems erroneous, for two reasons. The first is that "zo'e noi mi ke'a do > skicu lo ka ce'u broda" does not encode specificity (aka referentiality). > The second is that the contents of the noi phrase fall within the > truth-conditions of the containing bridi. You could probably argue that this > is trivial, because "mi ke'a do skicu" is true by virtue of being uttered, > so affects the truth-conditions vacuously, but that performativity is not > encoded, so "mi ke'a do skicu" is not in fact true by virtue of being > uttered, so is not truth-conditionally inert. You're right on both counts (though I personally wouldn't conflate specificity and referentiality). > I'd have thought the second > problem could have been remedied by using "voi" rather than "noi", though I > expect this must have been considered and rejected for some reason, and it > still leaves the first problem. If I remember correctly, the reason I decided against "voi" was that "voi" is defined as the non-veridical counterpart of "poi", and what I wanted was a non-veridical counterpart of "noi". Also, "voi" is a rare word in the language, much more so than "le", so using "voi" to define "le" seemed kind of backwards. > I'm also wondering whether there exists an experimental specific KOhA, a > nonanaphoric "it/them". (I think I used to use "le du" in lieu of such.) If > there were, then E gadri could be defined as "zo'e'e voi ke'a broda", no? > (where zo'e'e is the specific KOhA). Maybe "zo'e'e no'oi ke'a broda", with "no'oi" as the non-restrictive version of "voi". But I don't really have any clear understanding of what "zo'e'e" could be used for, other than to define "le". My current, tentative, understanding is that specificity is mostly a matter of degree rather than an on/off thing, so not really something that needs its own gadri, and I'm experimenting with using "lo" as the only gadri. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.