From 3bxXESwgJBpQG290868I4Ay69.0CA9C7zyB4CC4924FCIDG.0CA@groups.bounces.google.com Mon Apr 12 23:56:07 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3bxXESwgJBpQG290868I4Ay69.0CA9C7zyB4CC4924FCIDG.0CA@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1a2T-0000AX-OA; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:56:07 -0700 Received: by gwb17 with SMTP id 17sf490427gwb.16 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ljn83dB42yLUHI0fVd5GkyPg3S5hTO6mkpUWU7Btwn4=; b=lqNtNaogSnKpKkmMu6nwJyTrRPRFgxPDHr/U2PGZygqJj7iyM2/erDBUE1KfYv/T5r p7E0DKiM+hOsciYLrJFUwMH4fVR57jjrjwZa7ByvD40u59hFotMnUSkpaPtIz+S0vwZh nk5FNtEhykwki105PH454t6A2v7YQJmmfXhGQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=2A6vFAG2LGLLcQrJ/wiy/YEEWVyoLmYJ439BqNxZ36pymAsmAXAgvQ7dRtRmNUz7ma 1Ssss/gSioPXywZeFCr6DA0khZYkapd5TLWYxMmnd95wukVRueReotZLhMxuTq47BtDv WGHIZOUKMBH6HEBuNLEYb6bN8Pwwrcu4dl9s8= Received: by 10.91.49.16 with SMTP id b16mr796292agk.38.1271141743262; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls49705agk.6.p; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.48.9 with SMTP id v9mr3291951agv.5.1271141741359; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.48.9 with SMTP id v9mr3291950agv.5.1271141741315; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f213.google.com (mail-gx0-f213.google.com [209.85.217.213]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si272026yxe.15.2010.04.12.23.55.40; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.213 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.213; Received: by mail-gx0-f213.google.com with SMTP id 5so2327841gxk.6 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.10.203 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BC27C9E.2040306@lojban.org> From: Stela Selckiku Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 02:55:20 -0400 Received: by 10.151.117.16 with SMTP id u16mr4673140ybm.302.1271141740199; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Active-stative? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.213 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/cdf18777732f3c27 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/18d95be673641a8d Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 6:31 AM, "Alfred W. T=FCting" w= rote: > > or rendered similarly to the Nootka way > ("zdane'ikemcmafagyso'ikemprununjelca") > > or even exactly according to the Nootka syntax as > "fagykemyzdanerso'icmapru". Lately I've had almost enough rafsi-foo that I've been tempted to experiment with a style closer to that. There's so few people who the rafsi are transparent to though that in public I tend to gravitate instead towards using almost all gismu. I usually sprinkle in just a few lujvo that I think anyone might have heard of, or at least that have some history that I think they might be worth someone's time who has to look them up and learn them. For instance in a recent post here I used "zanfri" and I thought carefully before putting that venerable lujvo instead of something bland like "nelci" or "gleki"-- but I thought since I was only posting one sentence it wouldn't be too heavy to include that lesson. I do use more experimental language in private conversations. I don't generally ever go more than four or five rafsi in a lujvo, and usually only two or three, but I will use a bunch of lujvo in a row, sometimes a few in the same sentence, and Lojban does begin to feel like a different sort of language when you stretch it that way. I'd be interested in some sort of public forum (perhaps just a recurring subject prefix on this list would work) where a few of us would play around with speaking in a style with more improvised lujvo. For instance here's a game I just thought of. It's called "za'e". (zo za'e ca'e cmene lo mi selkei .i va'i lo mi selkei cu du la'e zo za'e ca'e) It's pretty simple: Instead of occasionally improvising lujvo and marking them with "za'e", you don't have to mark the improvised lujvo, because *every* brivla *must* be an improvised lujvo! :D Oh man now that I thought of that game I guess I have to write at least a sentence to two as an example-- um, let's see-- I invented a hard game! OK, ok: .i mi baurkei neirkei .i mi valsyfintycusku jufrysku .i .a'o do ji'a lujvyfintyjufrycuskykakne .i da'i do go'i .i je ko banzdifi'i kelcykansa mi .ui .i'i mu'o Actually that's not as hard as I thought! I forgot I could just use 4-letter rafsi if I forgot either the rafsi or (more often) how to hyphenate the short form lujvo proper. But a real challenge would be using distant jvajvo places of the lujvo you were making up! :D I also thought it was an interesting idea, somewhere earlier in this thead, to have a brivla that doesn't specify its x1. I don't see any reason not to have a brivla that works that way. All of the brivla have unspecified places, an infinite number of them, just usually they're at the end. There's no reason you can't have a do'e place for the x1. You sort of have that for "co'e" already, and certainly for the phrase "jai do'e broda". So why not? I also really enjoy "najyzme" though so I guess I'm just perverse. :P Anyway I think part of the reason why Lojban often looks like a European natlang is that we're mostly not using it purely for experimentation, especially in the most public of forums, instead we're speaking largely to a community of students that greatly outnumber the experts. Lojban is quite flexible, capable of all sorts of surface manifestations. It's able to look and act like what those students are used to in many ways, and so we bend it into an approachable, comprehensible shape. So while I like to experiment, in the context of speaking to all these beginners the sorts of forms that have appealed to me to explore are forms that are even simpler than a normal European sentence structure. For instance I'll use a lot of very basic sentence shapes like "broda" and "brode brodi" with a lot of attitudinal flavoring, only occasionally using any sumti, like "broda ge'e .i ge'e brode ge'e brodi .i brodi ge'e ge'e .i mi brodi ge'e lo broda .i ge'e broda .i ge'e brodo broda". My idea at least is that's a more experimental, more Lojbanic style of grammar, that's also simple enough for everyone to follow. mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.