From 3rybESwgJBuUZLSJRPRbNTHPS.JVTSVQIHUNVVNSLNYVbWZ.JVT@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 13 01:09:45 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3rybESwgJBuUZLSJRPRbNTHPS.JVTSVQIHUNVVNSLNYVbWZ.JVT@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1bBh-0006t0-Av; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:45 -0700 Received: by gwb17 with SMTP id 17sf546738gwb.16 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:received:message-id:subject:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vZVxMtV1pvu/yok60N3/6g80+h4L+mAYLpNGl0riups=; b=bLNn7qX7QBmTriKvK8M77ZQh7lBQizD799n8PdsjaQ3htaH+xW+nolvWi8L7wgnJsT ainYvb3ZtxqcwrlDm9hPzxSqLOikPsRgIp3WgtqIEzQ5sT5XOr91Oq3GMVLoy/ZXqw+8 T7GNCVfO8n7rFLIpQVwSN8wR3Z8INkFHa0e78= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=hA8O1Na/L3z1TcJrnB9vkIpKxaWa6M9ukrqdUN4IWzpWndZdwVASjM0G+J4xljzlNs /kBrJFv0HAjBmAT7O6ZJhvU7ltHQTZxPAp9NplhoelCU3Paeb1cwLfZ8n9BUrHy7WuMV D9uQp2fdUe1lHmxDNxTRAtghtmZ8NjBkc95R4= Received: by 10.91.49.16 with SMTP id b16mr810505agk.38.1271146159083; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.51.234 with SMTP id e42ls149671ibg.2.p; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.172.134 with SMTP id l6mr572022ibz.11.1271146155291; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.172.134 with SMTP id l6mr572021ibz.11.1271146155267; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f184.google.com (mail-iw0-f184.google.com [209.85.223.184]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si717676iwn.6.2010.04.13.01.09.14; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.184 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.223.184; Received: by iwn14 with SMTP id 14so4767778iwn.22 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.10.203 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:08:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100412220051.GA10102@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100405210225.GW6084@digitalkingdom.org> <20100409002127.GA11541@digitalkingdom.org> <201004092108.00980.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4BBFDF2F.6050509@gmail.com> <20100410035904.GS11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC08255.1000201@gmail.com> <20100412175849.GP20647@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC38D24.10608@gmail.com> <20100412220051.GA10102@digitalkingdom.org> From: Stela Selckiku Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 04:08:53 -0400 Received: by 10.231.59.5 with SMTP id j5mr2498816ibh.6.1271146153920; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The efficacy of Lojban's grammar. To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.184 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/c67f210addc06a0c X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/924b2c8adbd4c2fb Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > Probably true in both cases, but a *LOT* of Lojban uses use jbofihe > as a basic learning tool; I spent most of my years when I was unsure > of my grasp of the language passing everything through either > "jbofihe -x" or, if I was particularily unsure, "jbofihe -t", which > generates a full parse tree. =A0I'm far from unique in this respect. This is quite true! One way that the machinability of Lojban has had real world consequences is that there are Lojban processing AIs (if only quite narrow ones) with authority and respect in our community. It's just one of the reasons why spoken Lojban is actually so close to the official grammar, but it's an important one. You might argue with someone who says your usage doesn't parse the way you think, but I've rarely if ever seen someone argue with a computer generated parse tree that clearly shows that something doesn't end up where they thought it did. The parser always wins, so it's treated as an oracle, so whatever internal mental grammar each Lojbanist actually invents for themselves, they do tend to be able to produce trees that very closely resemble the parser's. mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.