From 3tMTESwsJBoky7xrnor4tr0tznvy.p1zy1won0t11tyrt41725.p1z@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 13 12:23:55 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f165.google.com ([209.85.221.165]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3tMTESwsJBoky7xrnor4tr0tznvy.p1zy1won0t11tyrt41725.p1z@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1liA-0000GH-La; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:55 -0700 Received: by qyk37 with SMTP id 37sf14971279qyk.20 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=XbsrQGpw8CyxMx6iA2/8Ws7Y8MEBXpYk1582oUADcRs=; b=RPZvxg9cEQUjYmcd8nst7MKde/2W5bVKACBs0i2Y1qPTSP6bJidUYMEjV2Baa4QKST 6/CIceN//ftVJCjR3+0AyvBeTdF89GdFoS4NIB4ndKlNJz58P6YzeV3R1/p9PpINnDAR zNmIKtbBuQyVyy07qBqPaMOkjVFhTsJeA5Vqo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=YOJNVHv5LvfR3As14a2re6H0O400I7UERvpftA9ny6rfHlDLYK59q5ar5SFH9k2XCO XN2bg5KHzDuZta8Vgv+CRAKZfuu/8Y05dwtmxw5uBLYDdiGQZLKG+1E2hZSTXtZJ7r3R 8Ly3eIGvjSlbiWlibW3jRX9/RGfnEFtZwRu4U= Received: by 10.229.43.209 with SMTP id x17mr213463qce.0.1271186612438; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.34.9 with SMTP id j9ls43599qcd.3.p; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.92.195 with SMTP id s3mr423685qcm.29.1271186610944; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.92.195 with SMTP id s3mr423684qcm.29.1271186610881; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com (mail-vw0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si809661qyk.14.2010.04.13.12.23.29; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by vws9 with SMTP id 9so422302vws.26 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.167.140 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <448505.50300.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> <4BC3B98F.5070805@gmail.com> <4BC4B763.6070903@gmail.com> <448505.50300.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 15:23:29 -0400 Received: by 10.220.4.23 with SMTP id 23mr3354853vcp.71.1271186609510; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {le} in xorlo From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/4ee659e5d111a754 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517576f364d9a1e04842332f8 --001517576f364d9a1e04842332f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 oh.. My mistake. I thought that {re lo ci bakni} is talking about "2 of the 3 bakni". You're saying it's the other way around? {ci lo re bakni} = "2 of the 3 cows"? My mistake, I should have read your first reply to my question more carefully. On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 2:56 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: And Rosta > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > > taking some subset, those that satisfy broda. > > I can't get my head round the notion of multiple referents. To my way of > thinking, the referent is the group; if one derives from that the predicate > "x is a member of the group referred to", then certainly the poi/noi > distinction makes sense. Hence to me, KOhA poi/noi is comparable to "li mu > (ku) poi/noi" (in which perhaps more clearly the poi/noi contrast would seem > to be vacuous). > > Welcome to the club, of sorts. But do not despair; you can have your cake > and xorxes his without more than verbal befuddlement. The logic of multiple > reference and quantification is exactly the same as the logic of L-sets > (mereology, the part-whole relationship: Lesniewski, Goodman, Leonard, > Quine), so saying 'some brodas' or 'a bunch of brodas' works exactly the > same way (pace Ockham). > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001517576f364d9a1e04842332f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oh.. My mistake. =A0I thought that {re lo ci bakni} is talking about "= 2 of the 3 bakni". =A0You're saying it's the other way around?= =A0{ci lo re bakni} =3D "2 of the 3 cows"?

My mistak= e, I should have read your first reply to my question more carefully.

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 2:56 PM, John E= Clifford <kal= i9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
----- Original Message ----

From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.= com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com<= br>
> taking some subset, those that satisfy broda.

I can't get my head round the notion of multiple referents. To my way o= f thinking, the referent is the group; if one derives from that the predica= te "x is a member of the group referred to", then certainly the p= oi/noi distinction makes sense. Hence to me, KOhA poi/noi is comparable to = "li mu (ku) poi/noi" (in which perhaps more clearly the poi/noi c= ontrast would seem to be vacuous).

Welcome to the club, of sorts. =A0B= ut do not despair; you can have your cake and xorxes his without more than = verbal befuddlement. =A0The logic of multiple reference and quantification = is exactly the same as the logic of L-sets (mereology, the part-whole relat= ionship: Lesniewski, Goodman, Leonard, Quine), so saying 'some brodas&#= 39; or 'a bunch of brodas' works exactly the same way (pace Ockham)= .





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