From 3FN3ESwcJBgIn0vnguyiockn.eqonqldcpiqqingitqwru.eqo@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 13 14:07:59 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3FN3ESwcJBgIn0vnguyiockn.eqonqldcpiqqingitqwru.eqo@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1nKp-000644-SQ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:59 -0700 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14sf1007238vws.16 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=3Omwp3BdE6P/PJnMhwC2EAwUPAp2uUtiIIdfXYpxL/U=; b=3RO7TCpunw89P1vON0bXJQY8OD4mEnITA2O4SS6glWB9gbh/4fNAk7524nDJxNcluX 9lM1bJQOEXmz94PXmW5QwMYBxlXmOI3djRIKXB/5DadC8Gp6Y5fcT7E+NCZjzEOH2ziX LJQYx0TNhfNDG+gVnAoSMzbdvzJQgwRkcT/CQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=K7PRTXBRzLAR+feKNCH2gOgJ0/9wYK2e1kOEyGlOMXQn+V+G0hWiAdMD3u3rvvrPqP rwu3uf9hZjG33GtnaoeKS/2gnBocSGAuGCT6rYJKgoT2mathGU8cSRadI5u7V9HXuaKn VYjq2B0PTCuW9GsgzZ19EPH7kUB2s/gBwbMRA= Received: by 10.220.107.86 with SMTP id a22mr479459vcp.39.1271192852673; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.68.217 with SMTP id w25ls51519vci.1.p; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.171.67 with SMTP id g3mr1341784vcz.27.1271192850525; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.171.67 with SMTP id g3mr1341783vcz.27.1271192850460; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f198.google.com (mail-yx0-f198.google.com [209.85.210.198]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 29si15473165vws.2.2010.04.13.14.07.29; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.198 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.198; Received: by yxe36 with SMTP id 36so3543873yxe.13 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.91.20 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <152629.37890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <20100409014708.GB11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BBF197D.6080601@lojban.org> <20100409222518.GN11541@digitalkingdom.org> <4BC02ABC.8000300@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> <152629.37890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:07:24 -0400 Received: by 10.101.3.35 with SMTP id f35mr10350870ani.129.1271192844988; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" From: MorphemeAddict To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/d523bd76df02e1e3 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c597edf86bb3048424a51b --001636c597edf86bb3048424a51b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My understanding is that you have "le" and "lei" right, since those are also the old meanings, but "lo broda" no longer requires actually "broda"ing. "Lo" seems to have no meaning of its own; it has a purely syntactical function. Ditto for "loi". stevo On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:34 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > Since none of this sounds familiar from my memory of the discussion a > couple of years ago, let me try to summarize in my frame of reference: > 'le broda' refers to something(s) I have in mind and am calling brodas with > the hope that you will pick out the right thing. Thus, it always has a > referent, though that may not actually be a broda. Having gotten rid of > obligatory though implicit quantifiers, we can still say that there is at > least one such object and that the expression unadorned refers to all of > them collectively. > 'lo broda' refers to some thing(s) that actually broda. Which ones is > determined contextually in a broad sense. Again there is at least on > referent and the expression refers to all of them collectively. > 'lei broda' introduces a fairly unclear notion of a mass, but otherwise > behaves like 'le broda', that is the mass is of things I'm calling brodas, > whether they are or not. At the best interpretation, masses are L-sets and > so behave exactly like the members collectively. I suppose there is some > difference in the way quantifiers are used with the two expressions, but > that's a later issue. > 'loi broda' is the same with the exception that the things actually are > brodas, > OK so far? > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Stela Selckiku > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Mon, April 12, 2010 1:20:00 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban" > > On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Robert LeChevalier > wrote: > > > > Nora would have to speak for herself, but her misgivings extend to the > old > > loi/lei pair (and I won't pretend to know any more, because I have no > idea > > what xorlo did to them). > > > Simplified them. Made them comprehensible. Made them immediately, > basically obvious. And if it wasn't xorlo that made Lojban's articles > so simple that they are immediately obvious, well then, SOMETHING did, > because now they are. > > The only and entire distinction between lo and loi is that the latter > is a mass. Specifically, "loi broda" means exactly "lo gunma be lo > broda", a mass composed of broda. All usages of "loi" could in fact > be systematically rewritten as phrases using "lo" and "gunma". For > instance "loi remna cu bevri lo pipno", the (mass of) humans carry the > piano, is exactly equivalent to "lo gunma be lo remna cu bevri lo > pipno", a mass whose components are humans carries the piano. > > The distinction between lo/loi and le/lei is a separate and equally > simple distinction. In this case in the deep structure the meaning is > accomplished by "skicu", describe. So "le broda" transforms to "zo'e > noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda", something which I describe it > to you as being broda. > > The only extent therefore to which the meaning of "le" is still > uncertain is the extent to which we have not nailed down the meaning > of "skicu". Here is how I understand it: The x1 (skicu) is easy > enough, it's the person describing, and the x3 (terski) is the > audience. The x2 (selski) is the thing being described, which could > be anything at all, as anything can be described somehow. The x4 > (velski) is the only possibly tricky one, the description. It's > listed as a quality, as opposed to say a sedu'u, which to me suggests > that you can also skicu something without using words. So to skicu > something, you somehow reveal or illustrate one or more of its > properties to someone. > > As far as what flavor that gives to a sumti using "le", this is my > impression, based on how people have been using it: As a skicu, you > have a particular something in mind, the selski, that you're > describing to the terski. You're describing it to the terski by > showing them one particular quality, the velski, but that's probably > not the only quality of the selski that you know or have in mind. > Often the selski is a particular instance, something concrete, but > even if it's abstract it is usually a somewhat rich abstraction in > your (the skicu's) mind. For instance it would be more likely to be > something like "the sort of apple that I'd like to eat", where you > could describe it to a listener as having various qualities, such as > "being an apple" and "not being rotten" and "being delicious" and "not > belonging to anyone else so that I won't get in trouble for eating > it", etc., as opposed to just a truly generic abstract "apple" with no > other qualities. > > It does not entirely matter though exactly what "skicu" means, if that > worries you, because there is no circumstance at all where you NEED to > implicitly assert that you skicu by saying "le". You can simply go > ahead and use "lo" all the time-- it's never ever wrong. And that is > indeed what every Lojban teacher that I know of tells their students > to do, and that is also what I recommend to you. > > > > One thing to remember is that Nora and I used pre-xorlo in Lojban for > around > > 20 years, and Nora used the TLI Loglan articles for around a decade > before > > that. Our usage was ingrained, habitual, fluent (at least with regard to > > choosing articles). > > > I feel safe in saying that I speak for almost everyone here when I say > that we would much rather hear Lojban with funny articles from you > than silence! We don't even pay any attention to what articles people > use anymore. :) > > > > Unlearning for us is non-trivial - I still on occasion use the gismu > "gumri", > > even though it was eliminated more than 15 years ago. > > > So do I! > > In fact I teach "gumri" to my students. I teach them the history of > the word, of course, and that they shouldn't usually use it, because > it "doesn't exist" even though we all actually know it! :D > > Some other words that "don't exist" that I teach my students (because > they'll actually encounter them in Lojbanistan, going around not > existing) include laldo, kibro, zvero, nuzlo, lo'ai sa'ai le'ai, > la'oi... > > > > (All three LogFlash programs were produced, and still exist, but I think > > only Nora and I ever used the cmavo program to mastery, and only I used > the > > rafsi/lujvo program, and not to the point of mastery.) > > > I first learned the gismu from LogFlash, but I only tried the other > versions a few times. > > > > I dunno if it exists or even is possible, but a constantly available and > > updating IRC log, where one would log in and see the last couple of pages > of > > discussion, regardless of how-long-ago it took place, would help, > > > This is exactly how IRC works. It's a beautiful, harmoniously > balanced, elegant model. Unfortunately it is also deeply geeky, so > the elegance is not immediately apparent, hidden as it is behind an > entirely mysterious interface-- a geek's idea of elegance, after all, > almost never includes visible, clearly-labeled controls. :) > > Unfortunately IRC is also such a geeky idea that to use it properly > requires you have a computer always running-- to some I suppose that > seems only as onerous a requirement as that you have electricity or > running water. :) Even while you're not there, your computer is > always "idling" in the IRC channel, receiving all of the messages for > you. At any time you can come to the computer and check the channel, > and the most recent messages will be ready for you, regardless of how > long ago they were. It's not expected that you'll read all of the > "backlog", as it's called, but it is expected that you'll skim it for > mentions of your own name, which your IRC client will helpfully > highlight for you. If people in the channel want to bring something > to your attention, they mention your name, perhaps just saying "hey, > read this conversation we just had, above". They can tell that your > computer is saving the messages for you, because they can see your > name in the list of users in the channel. > > It's also fine to drop in on a channel for a while, chat, and then > leave again. People who happen to be there at the time can read your > messages and respond to them, but also other people might read them > later when they read their backlog, and you can mention particular > people's usernames to make sure they notice what you said. > > > Anyway IRC totally isn't for everything or everyone. Especially these > days, there's a lot of other options. For instance Twitter is another > chatty medium, and everything said there is immediately on the web, so > that's useful in some ways. I like to follow this search for > instance, which isn't hard to keep up with at all: > http://search.twitter.com/search?q=lojban It's cool because not only > do you see Lojbanists' tweets to #lojban, but also there's usually a > funny comment or two in there every day from some random stranger > finding out about Lojban and saying what they think of it! Here's the > latest: > > "CorentinGallet: @CorentinGallet Korean is GREAT. And Lojban is > supposed to be HIGLY SUPERIOR. Doesn't matter. I'm speaking in Caml." > > .u'i > > mi'e la stela selckiku > mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636c597edf86bb3048424a51b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My understanding is that you have "le" and "lei" r= ight, since those are also the old meanings, but "lo broda" no lo= nger requires actually "broda"ing. "Lo" seems to have n= o meaning of its own; it has a purely syntactical function. Ditto for "= ;loi".
=A0
stevo

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:34 AM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
Since none of this sounds famili= ar from my memory of the discussion a couple of years ago, let me try to su= mmarize in my frame of reference:
'le broda' refers to something(s) I have in mind and am calling bro= das with the hope that you will pick out the right thing. =A0Thus, it alway= s has a referent, though that may not actually be a broda. Having gotten ri= d of obligatory though implicit quantifiers, we can still say that there is= at least one such object and that the expression unadorned refers to all o= f them collectively.
'lo broda' refers to some thing(s) that actually broda. =A0Which on= es is determined contextually in a broad sense. Again there is at least on = referent and the expression refers to all of them collectively.
'lei= broda' introduces a fairly unclear notion of a mass, but otherwise beh= aves like 'le broda', that is the mass is of things I'm calling= brodas, whether they are or not. =A0At the best interpretation, masses are= L-sets and so behave exactly like the members collectively. =A0I suppose t= here is some difference in the way quantifiers are used with the two expres= sions, but that's a later issue.
'loi broda' is the same with the exception that the things actually= are brodas,
OK so far?



----- Original Message ----
From: Stela Se= lckiku <selckiku@gmail.com>=
To: lojban@googlegroups.com<= /a>
Sent: Mon, April 12, 2010 1:20:00 AM
Subject: Re: [loj= ban] Response to Robin's "Essay on the future of Lojban"
<= br>
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Robert LeChevalier <<= a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org">lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
>= ;
> Nora would have to speak for herself, but her misgivings extend t= o the old
> loi/lei pair (and I won't pretend to know any more, because I have= no idea
> what xorlo did to them).


Simplified them. =A0Ma= de them comprehensible. =A0Made them immediately,
basically obvious. =A0= And if it wasn't xorlo that made Lojban's articles
so simple that they are immediately obvious, well then, SOMETHING did,
b= ecause now they are.

The only and entire distinction between lo and = loi is that the latter
is a mass. =A0Specifically, "loi broda"= means exactly "lo gunma be lo
broda", a mass composed of broda. =A0All usages of "loi" cou= ld in fact
be systematically rewritten as phrases using "lo" a= nd "gunma". =A0For
instance "loi remna cu bevri lo pipno&= quot;, the (mass of) humans carry the
piano, is exactly equivalent to "lo gunma be lo remna cu bevri lo
p= ipno", a mass whose components are humans carries the piano.

Th= e distinction between lo/loi and le/lei is a separate and equally
simple= distinction. =A0In this case in the deep structure the meaning is
accomplished by "skicu", describe. =A0So "le broda" tra= nsforms to "zo'e
noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda&= quot;, something which I describe it
to you as being broda.

The o= nly extent therefore to which the meaning of "le" is still
uncertain is the extent to which we have not nailed down the meaning
of = "skicu". =A0Here is how I understand it: The x1 (skicu) is easyenough, it's the person describing, and the x3 (terski) is the
aud= ience. =A0The x2 (selski) is the thing being described, which could
be anything at all, as anything can be described somehow. =A0The x4
(vel= ski) is the only possibly tricky one, the description. =A0It's
liste= d as a quality, as opposed to say a sedu'u, which to me suggests
tha= t you can also skicu something without using words. =A0So to skicu
something, you somehow reveal or illustrate one or more of its
propertie= s to someone.

As far as what flavor that gives to a sumti using &quo= t;le", this is my
impression, based on how people have been using i= t: As a skicu, you
have a particular something in mind, the selski, that you're
describ= ing to the terski. =A0You're describing it to the terski by
showing = them one particular quality, the velski, but that's probably
not the= only quality of the selski that you know or have in mind.
Often the selski is a particular instance, something concrete, but
even = if it's abstract it is usually a somewhat rich abstraction in
your (= the skicu's) mind. =A0For instance it would be more likely to be
som= ething like "the sort of apple that I'd like to eat", where y= ou
could describe it to a listener as having various qualities, such as
&qu= ot;being an apple" and "not being rotten" and "being de= licious" and "not
belonging to anyone else so that I won't= get in trouble for eating
it", etc., as opposed to just a truly generic abstract "apple&quo= t; with no
other qualities.

It does not entirely matter though ex= actly what "skicu" means, if that
worries you, because there i= s no circumstance at all where you NEED to
implicitly assert that you skicu by saying "le". =A0You can simpl= y go
ahead and use "lo" all the time-- it's never ever wro= ng. =A0And that is
indeed what every Lojban teacher that I know of tells= their students
to do, and that is also what I recommend to you.


> One thing = to remember is that Nora and I used pre-xorlo in Lojban for around
> = 20 years, and Nora used the TLI Loglan articles for around a decade before<= br> > that. =A0Our usage was ingrained, habitual, fluent (at least with rega= rd to
> choosing articles).


I feel safe in saying that I s= peak for almost everyone here when I say
that we would much rather hear = Lojban with funny articles from you
than silence! =A0We don't even pay any attention to what articles peopl= e
use anymore. :)


> Unlearning for us is non-trivial - I s= till on occasion use the gismu "gumri",
> even though it wa= s eliminated more than 15 years ago.


So do I!

In fact I teach "gumri" to my students. = =A0I teach them the history of
the word, of course, and that they should= n't usually use it, because
it "doesn't exist" even th= ough we all actually know it! :D

Some other words that "don't exist" that I teach my stude= nts (because
they'll actually encounter them in Lojbanistan, going a= round not
existing) include laldo, kibro, zvero, nuzlo, lo'ai sa'= ;ai le'ai,
la'oi...


> (All three LogFlash programs were produced, an= d still exist, but I think
> only Nora and I ever used the cmavo prog= ram to mastery, and only I used the
> rafsi/lujvo program, and not to= the point of mastery.)


I first learned the gismu from LogFlash, but I only tried the other=
versions a few times.


> I dunno if it exists or even is p= ossible, but a constantly available and
> updating IRC log, where one= would log in and see the last couple of pages of
> discussion, regardless of how-long-ago it took place, would help,
<= br>
This is exactly how IRC works. =A0It's a beautiful, harmoniously=
balanced, elegant model. =A0Unfortunately it is also deeply geeky, so the elegance is not immediately apparent, hidden as it is behind an
enti= rely mysterious interface-- a geek's idea of elegance, after all,
al= most never includes visible, clearly-labeled controls. :)

Unfortunat= ely IRC is also such a geeky idea that to use it properly
requires you have a computer always running-- to some I suppose that
see= ms only as onerous a requirement as that you have electricity or
running= water. :) =A0Even while you're not there, your computer is
always &= quot;idling" in the IRC channel, receiving all of the messages for
you. =A0At any time you can come to the computer and check the channel,
= and the most recent messages will be ready for you, regardless of how
lo= ng ago they were. =A0It's not expected that you'll read all of the<= br> "backlog", as it's called, but it is expected that you'll= skim it for
mentions of your own name, which your IRC client will helpf= ully
highlight for you. =A0If people in the channel want to bring someth= ing
to your attention, they mention your name, perhaps just saying "hey,read this conversation we just had, above". =A0They can tell that yo= ur
computer is saving the messages for you, because they can see your name in the list of users in the channel.

It's also fine to drop= in on a channel for a while, chat, and then
leave again. =A0People who = happen to be there at the time can read your
messages and respond to the= m, but also other people might read them
later when they read their backlog, and you can mention particular
peopl= e's usernames to make sure they notice what you said.


Anyway= IRC totally isn't for everything or everyone. =A0Especially these
days, there's a lot of other options. =A0For instance Twitter is anothe= r
chatty medium, and everything said there is immediately on the web, so=
that's useful in some ways. =A0I like to follow this search for
instance, which isn't hard to keep up with at all:
http://search.twit= ter.com/search?q=3Dlojban =A0It's cool because not only
do you s= ee Lojbanists' tweets to #lojban, but also there's usually a
funny comment or two in there every day from some random stranger
findin= g out about Lojban and saying what they think of it! =A0Here's the
l= atest:

"CorentinGallet: @CorentinGallet =A0Korean is GREAT. And= Lojban is
supposed to be HIGLY SUPERIOR. Doesn't matter. I'm speaking in Caml= ."

.u'i

mi'e la stela selckiku
mu'o
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