From 3KOLESwsJBhsCLB5125I75E7D19C.3FDCFA21E7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 13 14:29:36 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3KOLESwsJBhsCLB5125I75E7D19C.3FDCFA21E7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1nfn-00005t-E4; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:34 -0700 Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf9354209qyk.1 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=sHcthV9s8xIdK9A/a5isXB1/x5CKj1YS+ICZaHJ9RAw=; b=PGNV3emwoVB4cy9LxK8yLlCyhyvTolENohMPAibVUnlLz9RIKDUC0BpJ3Uh2pP/rhU H0anG2IRTWhS9z+9EOZrjrKlKhIcyAim2fSvMz5G4dRALsYMvfTO3nhe2/jdCxDlOemF dFhuzlSpLzkw1cpyQrqq5t9FeOH7J3NK9ola0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=OaDJI3JMck63oju3+kM9b7TMFkj9UfwvpUd7nvvXo0s6N6ln0kOdl25gl2wqwfK2+b QTOqPkHnnnIziRaakCzvrsPQ+pU3XFW+TIjfrI/gW29Dx59nKr9BkqtzppPwAbqiWBio 6C+Z9fUZ+fsduW/wCgHermsmZjWKBUVfCsWGU= Received: by 10.224.1.105 with SMTP id 41mr326354qae.2.1271194152942; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.41.66 with SMTP id n2ls46267qae.3.p; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.25.66 with SMTP id y2mr607518qab.14.1271194151249; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.25.66 with SMTP id y2mr607517qab.14.1271194151176; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f47.google.com (mail-vw0-f47.google.com [209.85.212.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si864898qyk.4.2010.04.13.14.29.10; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.47; Received: by vws15 with SMTP id 15so141517vws.34 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.167.140 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201585.79379.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BC1D15A.5030409@lojban.org> <4BC36464.8010707@gmail.com> <4BC3B98F.5070805@gmail.com> <4BC4B763.6070903@gmail.com> <448505.50300.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201585.79379.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:29:09 -0400 Received: by 10.220.60.140 with SMTP id p12mr3472984vch.57.1271194149813; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {le} in xorlo From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/1421cd43ba89202 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e887ea1bd82fd048424f3b9 --e0cb4e887ea1bd82fd048424f3b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > There's something about fractional quantifiers as well, but I am even less sure how that works: > 'pire lo'i gerku' is maybe halves of dogs for 'lo' but, I think, still a bunch of dogs half the original > size for 'loi'. My brain just 'sploded a little. On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 5:26 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Ummm! I think that the quantifiers behave differently for 'lo' and 'loi' > 're lo ci gerku' is two of the three dogs acting individually but 're loi > ci gerku' is a bunch of two, i.e., acting still together. There's something > about fractional quantifiers as well, but I am even less sure how that > works: 'pire lo'i gerku' is maybe halves of dogs for 'lo' but, I think, > still a bunch of dogs half the original size for 'loi'. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John E Clifford > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 1:56:40 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] {le} in xorlo > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: And Rosta > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > > > taking some subset, those that satisfy broda. > > I can't get my head round the notion of multiple referents. To my way of > thinking, the referent is the group; if one derives from that the predicate > "x is a member of the group referred to", then certainly the poi/noi > distinction makes sense. Hence to me, KOhA poi/noi is comparable to "li mu > (ku) poi/noi" (in which perhaps more clearly the poi/noi contrast would seem > to be vacuous). > > Welcome to the club, of sorts. But do not despair; you can have your cake > and xorxes his without more than verbal befuddlement. The logic of multiple > reference and quantification is exactly the same as the logic of L-sets > (mereology, the part-whole relationship: Lesniewski, Goodman, Leonard, > Quine), so saying 'some brodas' or 'a bunch of brodas' works exactly the > same way (pace Ockham). > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e0cb4e887ea1bd82fd048424f3b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=A0There's something about fractional quantifiers as well, bu= t I am even less sure how that works:=A0
> 'pire lo'i gerku' is maybe halves of = dogs for 'lo' but, I think, still a bunch of dogs half the original= =A0
> size for 'loi'.
<= div>
My brain just 'sploded a little.


On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 5:26 PM, John E Cl= ifford <kali9p= utra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ummm! =A0I think that the quantifiers behav= e differently for 'lo' and 'loi' =A0're lo ci gerku'= ; is two of the three dogs acting individually but 're loi ci gerku'= ; is a bunch of two, i.e., acting still together. =A0There's something = about fractional quantifiers as well, but I am even less sure how that work= s: 'pire lo'i gerku' is maybe halves of dogs for 'lo' b= ut, I think, still a bunch of dogs half the original size for 'loi'= .



----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <kali9putr= a@yahoo.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com<= br>
Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 1:56:40 P= M
Subject: Re: [lojban] {le} in xorlo

----- Original Message ----

From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.= com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com<= br>
> taking some subset, those that satisfy broda.

I can't get my head round the notion of multiple referents. To my way o= f thinking, the referent is the group; if one derives from that the predica= te "x is a member of the group referred to", then certainly the p= oi/noi distinction makes sense. Hence to me, KOhA poi/noi is comparable to = "li mu (ku) poi/noi" (in which perhaps more clearly the poi/noi c= ontrast would seem to be vacuous).

Welcome to the club, of sorts. =A0But do not despair; you can have your cak= e and xorxes his without more than verbal befuddlement. =A0The logic of mul= tiple reference and quantification is exactly the same as the logic of L-se= ts (mereology, the part-whole relationship: Lesniewski, Goodman, Leonard, Q= uine), so saying 'some brodas' or 'a bunch of brodas' works= exactly the same way (pace Ockham).





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