From 34OPESwcJBtQBOJB4IM6C08B.2ECBE910D6EE6B46HEKFI.2EC@groups.bounces.google.com Tue Apr 13 14:36:56 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f141.google.com ([209.85.210.141]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <34OPESwcJBtQBOJB4IM6C08B.2ECBE910D6EE6B46HEKFI.2EC@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O1nms-00013A-G8; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:55 -0700 Received: by yxe5 with SMTP id 5sf8447303yxe.2 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=sOUyKYtwAJ68nLPLFfjwL4HS9UIx2U2gcKbU+81eYEY=; b=i/t2ADjgNx/91UB/0juLMCr0/P4mUnxhasXrYBRoS9dC4jeFm74C4LroB9PrTB6/TR e5GydgVRnKIsxnIkO871hqUVjArLYVzl46ekjd9pSCTXwk9X3bIQjfzEdvm61ojTFI2p obTbbX61n5ZRQ5qu9jgAk+t9EIGLKUmKpRHYw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=vpdZanLqydWZUbj7cYBI+KFO0crs7fN0t8e8Jj0ce4gJ9t/L10xtUAUu+b2R+Ss3kM t3/9xLmMDgj+AChKwx4Cw+s8fiPtzuZqzE4S5kOoryI2xwLjpk8WScYOSbYD2voSGjBz tT8BKy3E+IokFGh9HTT2ck4RLQA56w/p43cO0= Received: by 10.91.90.12 with SMTP id s12mr1033891agl.7.1271194592474; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.66.23 with SMTP id t23ls17776agk.6.p; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.7.36 with SMTP id 36mr4223757agg.10.1271194590703; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.7.36 with SMTP id 36mr4223754agg.10.1271194590291; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f201.google.com (mail-yx0-f201.google.com [209.85.210.201]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si308374yxe.1.2010.04.13.14.36.29; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.201 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.201; Received: by mail-yx0-f201.google.com with SMTP id 39so439961yxe.12 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.91.20 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BC37A59.7070404@gmail.com> References: <4BBF505B.2050705@gmail.com> <4BBF83EC.2050402@lojban.org> <4BC37A59.7070404@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:36:24 -0400 Received: by 10.101.108.6 with SMTP id k6mr11287854anm.162.1271194585089; Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Cultural fu'ivla: summary and list of the ISO generated ones From: MorphemeAddict To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.201 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/f66e2fdee6af20a6 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/c32df0f194a29feb Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636ed7681af973b0484250d4a --001636ed7681af973b0484250d4a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's not an either-or proposition. We now have a comprehensive list of fu'ivla for languages and countries. Th= e gismu aren't going to disappear by fiat, although they may fade away, but we're not required to use them. Choose which words you like or make your own. stevo On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Leo Molas wrote: > El 09/04/2010 04:45 p.m., Bob LeChevalier escribi=F3: > > Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> 1) Having gismu for some cultures and not others is biased, and > >> therefore violates the "culturally neutral" stance of Lojban. > > > > Only in the same sense that basing the gismu-making process on only 6 o= f > > the 12 most-spoken languages is culturally-biased, because it excludes > > all the rest. > > This is not that accurate, since lojban doesn't sound like any of those. > However, I don't think a guaran=ED speaker would be hurt by that; but not > having a gismu for Paraguay (and having one for argentina). > > > > > If one thinks only about gismu, then perhaps it is. If one considers > > fu'ivla made from the name of the language/culture IN the language, the= n > > we've more than neutralized that bias. > > Making fu'ivla like that would be the best; I've searched for a list > with the languages names as said by natives, but I failed. That's why I > thought of "ISO generated" as the best possible solution. > > > > > Gismu are shorter than fu'ivla, reflecting a presumption under Zipf's > > law of higher usage frequency, and references by speakers to their own > > language is a high frequency concept, so giving shorter words to > > more-spoken languages is one form of cultural-neutrality. > > > > This is a good argument. However, it doesn't work for many many people > from the other countries. > > >> The only > >> acceptable solution to this is to either have a word for *all* > >> cultures, or to not have a word for *any* of them. > > > > We decided otherwise. > > This is not a good argument... > > > > >> 2) The cultural gismu basically have too many meanings. For example, > >> {merko} means "x1 pertains to USA/American culture/nationality/dialect > >> in aspect x2". The solution to this is to > > > > ... make lujvo based on them. And in fu'ivla space, make culture words > > using the experimental space that allows fu'ivla to be made into rafsi > > and combined with the gismu used with the cultural gismu to make lujvo. > > > > lojbab > > In this discussion, I've seen people who are against the cultural gismu, > people who don't care about it, and conservatives that don't want to > change a thing. But, besides what I marked IMO as a good argument, I > haven't read much of those. > > I understand if there are people that won't like this change, but I > think others that, like myself, don't like the cultural gismu, won't use > them; we'll create fu'ivla, and encourage peers to use it. > > mu'o mi'e .leos. > > -- > My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com > My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636ed7681af973b0484250d4a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's not an either-or proposition.
We now have a comprehensiv= e list of fu'ivla for languages and countries. The gismu aren't goi= ng to disappear by fiat, although they may fade away, but we're not req= uired to use them. Choose which words you like=A0or make your own.
=A0
stevo

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Leo Molas <leos.molas@gmail.c= om> wrote:
El 09/04/2010 04:45 p.m., Bob Le= Chevalier escribi=F3:
> Jonathan Jones wrote:
>> 1) Having gismu fo= r some cultures and not others is biased, and
>> therefore violate= s the "culturally neutral" stance of Lojban.
>
> Only= in the same sense that basing the gismu-making process on only 6 of
> the 12 most-spoken languages is culturally-biased, because it excludes=
> all the rest.

This is not that accurate, since lojban= doesn't sound like any of those.
However, I don't think a guara= n=ED speaker would be hurt by that; but not
having a gismu for Paraguay (and having one for argentina).

>
> If one thinks only about gismu, then per= haps it is. =A0If one considers
> fu'ivla made from the name of t= he language/culture IN the language, then
> we've more than neutr= alized that bias.

Making fu'ivla like that would be the best; I've searched= for a list
with the languages names as said by natives, but I failed. T= hat's why I
thought of "ISO generated" as the best possibl= e solution.

>
> Gismu are shorter than fu'ivla, refl= ecting a presumption under Zipf's
> law of higher usage frequency= , and references by speakers to their own
> language is a high freque= ncy concept, so giving shorter words to
> more-spoken languages is one form of cultural-neutrality.
>
<= br>
This is a good argument. However, it doesn't work for many man= y people
from the other countries.

>> The only
>> acceptable solution to = this is to either have a word for *all*
>> cultures, or to not hav= e a word for *any* of them.
>
> We decided otherwise.

This is not a good argument...

>
>> 2) The cultural gismu basically have= too many meanings. For example,
>> {merko} means "x1 pertain= s to USA/American culture/nationality/dialect
>> in aspect x2"= ;. The solution to this is to
>
> ... make lujvo based on them. =A0And in fu'ivla space, mak= e culture words
> using the experimental space that allows fu'ivl= a to be made into rafsi
> and combined with the gismu used with the c= ultural gismu to make lujvo.
>
> lojbab

In this discussion, I've seen people w= ho are against the cultural gismu,
people who don't care about it, a= nd conservatives that don't want to
change a thing. But, besides wha= t I marked IMO as a good argument, I
haven't read much of those.

I understand if there are people tha= t won't like this change, but I
think others that, like myself, don&= #39;t like the cultural gismu, won't use
them; we'll create fu&#= 39;ivla, and encourage peers to use it.

mu'o mi'e .leos.

--
My lojban journ= al: http= ://learninglojban.wordpress.com
My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com


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