From 3krvGSw0JBmAJGLB8PRFC98PBW8FMM.AMKJMH98LEMMEJCEPMSNQ.AMK@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 15 00:09:31 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3krvGSw0JBmAJGLB8PRFC98PBW8FMM.AMKJMH98LEMMEJCEPMSNQ.AMK@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O2JCX-0006Vh-4X; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:09:30 -0700 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf444622gwb.16 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:09:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:date :in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:received :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lWAlVeISyHtjG48KDGzd23FX5ZbEfUbVNu+X/j+EK0g=; b=yIqgO9DH5JqAZ3c5FN6cAIzg0gzpYFmpB9krjtV4UAEup5k/WCb7qvR4ScfblhtqUD BNVHHjtEd/29sOidpfnVI0rLEVns2PTsIlCWkxEPsFFCSjToZzK4z0f6PRUuMV1AVLh5 AdKnwPex42lu/wniTTbjFgjY3pTqEXW+RDxBI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mYwWt6V+BDM14IPXU8wgc+5GIh+1OGnYLEOk01XGJRiK2Qws1z0K428YS65hcjmaIH mJX5TV+I3dJVJwN93njAoYUDuYvzFQaIHccIUtxztJiE26vCDVTWg3365NR6XtuiCZuj fTiQZLMkiKgW6FRCKOVRz/zVvHCoflNYbfueI= Received: by 10.150.172.7 with SMTP id u7mr399898ybe.38.1271315346584; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:09:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.207.3 with SMTP id e3ls211727ybg.3.p; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.104.14 with SMTP id b14mr7760040ybc.23.1271315345056; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr4804838agp.3.1271313821374; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.42.40 with SMTP id p40mr4804837agp.3.1271313821305; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f56.google.com (mail-gw0-f56.google.com [74.125.83.56]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 17si131445gxk.0.2010.04.14.23.43.41; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 74.125.83.56 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lindarthebard@yahoo.com) client-ip=74.125.83.56; Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1so539677gwb.1 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:43:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:43:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 173.196.20.139 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <448505.50300.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201585.79379.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201004132253.05621.phma@phma.optus.nu> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100401 Ubuntu/9.10 (karmic) Firefox/3.5.9,gzip(gfe) Received: by 10.101.142.33 with SMTP id u33mr318594ann.25.1271313821223; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4a02d723-a934-434a-b626-0a3a9fbf803f@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo From: Lindar To: lojban X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 74.125.83.56 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lindarthebard@yahoo.com) smtp.mail=lindarthebard@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/88d2c3a6d0b849ef Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. And, despite all your complaining about how Lojban fails as a logical language and how everything is absolutely wrong, you failed to: a. Explain in what way it has failed. b. Suggest what to do next. 2. zo'e !=3D lo. I have no idea where you folks got the idea, but AFAIK "zo'e" is not "lo broda" or anything like that, it is simply an unspecified sumti, and therefore we don't need a new sumti "zo'e'e" or any such thing. It's not a particular unspecified thing, it isn't a specific unspecified thing, and it's not a thing which really is or isn't or is called an unspecified thing, it's just an unspecified sumti. 3. Bob, the absolute stupidest way I can put it, and the way I've hated explaining it, is that lo =3D a, le =3D the. That's pretty much how they universally end up getting translated. lo patfu =3D a father, determined by context, probably mine or just any given father (really depending on context) Any such thing that could fit the x1. le patfu =3D 'the' father, could still be my father, could be my father-in-law, could be my friend's father, could be somebody that we both know that acts very fatherly towards people, it could be a knot in a tree trunk that looks like your father, but the idea is that it's a particular thing you're talking about, and you're calling it "patfu". ((Sub-note: If this is wrong, then this is how a non-techy, non- linguist, non-intelligent audio engineer has perceived how these two gadri work, and it's clsn/Timo/ARJ that are to blame for teaching me incorrectly.)) 4. Why can't we use a common-sense rule? I see things like plibu (generic word for external genitalia) and vlagi (word for vulva [female external genitalia])... so we have an obvious redundancy and consistency flaw (being that we have a consistency set up from remna to pinji to ganti regarding gender specification. Get rid of vlagi. It's -extremely- obvious stuff like that which we need to just remove. Another, yet different, example is of "mabla" wherein nobody (of whom I know) uses the standard definition (something like "x1 is a derogative use of x2" or something stupid like that), and pretty much everybody else uses it as a swear (x1 is stupid/bad/detestable/shitty/ etc.), so why don't we just skip formalities and change the definition? I'm sorry that I don't have too much insight on the issue of cmavo, but the one that apparently has held the byfy back several years or whatever I fail to see as a problem. "Without intent" is my strongly believed and fully uninformed definition of ".ai nai". Honestly, I mabla-ing hate most UI in the first place (mostly because they're overused and made endlessly complex by newbies using ru'ecaisaise'iwhatever so I know precisely how happy/annoyed you are on a scale of one to a thousand including decimal places into the millionths, but I have no idea what they're actually trying to say because they forgot to use a damn gadri and accidentally a whole tanru), so I don't see why any focus is put on them. They have absolutely no practical use other than being a stupid toy for people that don't want to learn the language and just want to spam ".u'i" instead of "lol" every five seconds. It -REALLY- does not matter what ".ai nai" means, so just pick something and stick with it, and if everybody bitches about it endlessly, then change it. Personally, I'd put more focus on fixing whatever little stupid words the linguists are worried about that I'll probably never use in a million years, and more importantly, I'd work on simplifying some of the language for stupid people like myself as I still have absolutely -no- idea what "ce'u" does, what "pseudo-quantifier binding a variable within an abstraction that represents an open place." or 'lambda' is supposed to mean, and I'm scared to death of anything I haven't learned that is apparently "non-veridical" because I read in the dictionary that it means something like "a lie", which clearly means I have no understanding of what the hell it means or how to use it (like "voi"). 5. Frankly, I could give less than two shits what some Uni professor's opinion of Lojban is or what some obnoxious person that I've never seen on IRC or the mailing list (which leads me to assume they speak little to no Lojban/haven't studied Lojban and read one article somebody else wrote and immediately formed an opinion) before thinks regarding the logical-ness of Lojban, and I think that as soon as we please the bureaucrats regarding the broken bits of Lojban, we should stop griping about every little damn thing and instead focus on community efforts like encouraging people to get on Mumble and leave it on, starting -some- kind of video-based "lo do ckiku ma zvati" on YT, and getting a LOT more people to actively participate in the art and music community, including developing modern pop art and music using Lojban and coming up with music that is unique to the culture surrounding the speakers of Lojban (which brings up a small sub-point that as much as one of those HUGE key points everybody clings to like the word "Unambiguous=99" that Lojban is not culturally neutral, and the main Lojban group that regularly communicates on IRC has formed its own living concept of Lojbanic culture, including humour, games, and music, which I believe we should expand and embrace so that we have flash animations, shows, music, art, poetry, and a true art culture in Lojban). Now I shall promptly head back into IRC to have "voi" explained to me another 20 times and "ce'u" another 200. This is my wholly uninformed and (relevantly) uneducated opinion on the matter, and I apologise for none of it. - Lindar --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.