From 3MvDGSwoJBjUcVfj.dfcRjXdRZc.TfdcfaSReXffXcVXiflgj.Tfd@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 15 03:54:05 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3MvDGSwoJBjUcVfj.dfcRjXdRZc.TfdcfaSReXffXcVXiflgj.Tfd@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O2Mht-0003f3-D1; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:54:05 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf702625gyd.16 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=vrEw25bSxompPbeuidtB5M5W4WVEI0ARsV3BWnu70r4=; b=SHuRGf2MvLJO1wU7DifMiC2s7agrzFNddE4q9b04fAepvAiwJFXWmzPZSwYVE+cW+z ANPse+twFOkRCMknKbu65qFSkxHPxaCw927kDV3qc6qPAbjwLOewcW1ZTZrQXfg+xT2M exrI/wWZLIN/E0OeInHu89YodVsY+5EghFSAc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version :content-type:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; b=NdvQLt/GwPa6hxlvmT236+HjQ1mcN5aZfSLjl9OkkEO/ooO/98zbp8UjIgC/vt7U6f WDp9+jy/+vgYvWJ2+dh8i1QLioG68gm+xh9F9a2QupZu12KUElXx6EONF+r1pkCOXJO+ LDTiG5vRpte6dKGJl8VlOx1CskLKHjhHtrBlI= Received: by 10.91.82.11 with SMTP id j11mr36506agl.11.1271328818378; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.93.10 with SMTP id v10ls204899agl.3.p; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.10.20 with SMTP id 20mr68425agj.0.1271328815609; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.10.20 with SMTP id 20mr68424agj.0.1271328815574; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f209.google.com (mail-gx0-f209.google.com [209.85.217.209]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si107952yxe.11.2010.04.15.03.53.34; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of leos.molas@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.209 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.209; Received: by gxk1 with SMTP id 1so741646gxk.16 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.156.35 with SMTP id i35mr14730657ano.126.1271328806268; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([190.97.37.224]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm405413ywf.20.2010.04.15.03.53.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BC6F032.8020504@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 07:53:38 -0300 From: Leo Molas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; es-AR; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Request For Help; non-urgent research request to help Lojban. 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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: El 15/04/2010 04:52 a.m., Oren escribió: > I like the idea of categories (or... tags!), I think the wiki is the > place for it to happen, and I also think we shouldn't start from > scratch. The thesaurus on the wiki page already segregates all gismu > into hierarchical categories. We can make a page template that allows > people to add "lujvo requests" to a category. A sister project to > consider would be fleshing out that same ontology with the existing > specialized lujvo lists and the lujvo flat file. > > I would also think that English/natlang glosses for the categories > should be optional while lojban section titles be mandatory and > default, for clarity. > > Back to the original topic of finding a minimal wordlist for a > dictionary, I think the real forward-thinking approach would be to > find some sufficiently open project similar to EuroWordNet [a > multilingual WordNet], and then extracting a set number of unique > *syslinks* (word senses), so that when we sit down to define 'spring' > we don't have to remember jumping, metal coils and le printemps all by > our erring-human selves. > > We could either use an arbitrary limit and go by frequency, and/or go > for all syslinks that contain an arbitrary number of constituent > languages. For example, only bother with 50% of all word senses that > appear in three or more languages. > > co'o mi'e korbi > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:13, Lindar wrote: >> My absolutely fantastic idea that donri/kribacr started and never >> finished (or never even started, but definitely came up before I >> thought of it [but it's still my idea]) is/was/will be to have groups >> of people select topics, and then go through and come up with as many >> words related to that topic as possible. I got this idea one day as I >> was sticking masking tape to pretty much everything around my >> apartment and writing the Lojban word for it in sharpie. I came across >> the simple fact that jvs didn't have words for "pot", "kitchen", >> "frying pan", etc., so I [...] Content analysis details: (1.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is freemail (leos.molas[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.6 URG_BIZ BODY: Contains urgent matter 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4785] 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.0 T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig416F52D9625AED311A2CBF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El 15/04/2010 04:52 a.m., Oren escribi=F3: > I like the idea of categories (or... tags!), I think the wiki is the > place for it to happen, and I also think we shouldn't start from > scratch. The thesaurus on the wiki page already segregates all gismu > into hierarchical categories. We can make a page template that allows > people to add "lujvo requests" to a category. A sister project to > consider would be fleshing out that same ontology with the existing > specialized lujvo lists and the lujvo flat file. >=20 > I would also think that English/natlang glosses for the categories > should be optional while lojban section titles be mandatory and > default, for clarity. >=20 > Back to the original topic of finding a minimal wordlist for a > dictionary, I think the real forward-thinking approach would be to > find some sufficiently open project similar to EuroWordNet [a > multilingual WordNet], and then extracting a set number of unique > *syslinks* (word senses), so that when we sit down to define 'spring' > we don't have to remember jumping, metal coils and le printemps all by > our erring-human selves. >=20 > We could either use an arbitrary limit and go by frequency, and/or go > for all syslinks that contain an arbitrary number of constituent > languages. For example, only bother with 50% of all word senses that > appear in three or more languages. >=20 > co'o mi'e korbi >=20 > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:13, Lindar wrote: >> My absolutely fantastic idea that donri/kribacr started and never >> finished (or never even started, but definitely came up before I >> thought of it [but it's still my idea]) is/was/will be to have groups >> of people select topics, and then go through and come up with as many >> words related to that topic as possible. I got this idea one day as I >> was sticking masking tape to pretty much everything around my >> apartment and writing the Lojban word for it in sharpie. I came across= >> the simple fact that jvs didn't have words for "pot", "kitchen", >> "frying pan", etc., so I came up with words for them, and I think at >> least "kitchen" (jupku'a) is up there. I tried this again with >> computer terminology and it completely failed as nobody could agree >> properly on things (like "window", on which I still harshly/ >> obnoxiously/rudely/insultingly disagree with xorxes). >> >> Rather than having one person sit through some big gehorsenshitfesten >> (parden my German) trying to pick out the most common concepts in the >> universe, why don't we use the wiki idea and create "conversational >> categories" under which we can place words (probably a lot of fu'ivla >> and lujvo) relevant to the topic. This will generate a much larger and= >> relevant body of information, and it's a -much- less daunting task. >> For example, I am a recording engineer, so I would be likely to start >> a "recording technology" topic, and possibly contribute to the "music"= >> topic as I would be more likely than anybody else to need/use words >> like "Hertz"/"kHz", "microphone", "nearfield monitors", "synthesizer",= >> "MIDI", "mixing console", "bass", "treble", and I would probably be >> more qualified to determine what kind of terminology in Lojban is the >> most suitable. I'd also be fairly interested in the "kitchen and >> cooking" topic, and I think a great many a newbie would be very >> interested in the "household objects" topic, which would probably >> include a pointer to the "kitchen and cooking" topic and maybe even a >> "bathroom and hygiene" topic. This way people find what interests them= >> and contribute to topics that they enjoy, which doesn't necessarily >> give an accurate picture of common usage based on an average through >> world cultures, but definitely gives a good sampling of words to use >> in conversation for the types of conversation that people learning >> Lojban would have. It works as a double edged sword (of handiness) in >> that we have people that are going to enjoy working because they're >> learning how to talk about things that interest them by contributing >> (which means things are more likely to get added, being that it's fun >> and not a chore) -AND- that we have quick 'topic reference' >> dictionaries so you can just leave the list open and peak through to >> make it easier to carry on conversations about what an arse your >> government leader is without having to poke through a list for ten >> minutes while the conversation has already passed because you wanted a= >> word for "idiot" and jvs only had "stupid" as a gloss word for >> tolmencre. (Bad example, you get the picture.) >> >> Perhaps we can quickly brainstorm a few major topics just to have >> something up on a wiki? >> >> household items >> kitchen and cooking >> bathroom and hygiene >> sports and spectating >> automotive and driving >> computer ((hot topic, prone to arguments)) >> music >> politics and law >> school and education >> work and the workplace >> friends and family >> >> The idea would be to have a big list of topics (and possibly >> subtopics), and on the pages of each we have brief glosses with Lojban= >> words, with links to a page detailing the place structure, examples of= >> usage, actual usage example if available, and potentially a relevant >> image (for those that learn by seeing and not reading). >> >> Perhaps under "household items" is "garage", and on the page for that >> it includes a little link for "see section: automotive and driving", >> and perhaps even "garage" is also located under "automotive and >> driving" or somesuch. >> >> Neatonifty idea, right? >> Ey, I like this ideas... count me in when it's starting (I can help in many of those :) mu'o mi'e .leos. --=20 My lojban journal: http://learninglojban.wordpress.com My personal blog: http://leomolas.tumblr.com --------------enig416F52D9625AED311A2CBF20 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLxvA5AAoJEGPqAjdF26uE0+sIAKgnE8yr2bd8Wyk4uQMaqAIP xG0NyVaySVRuBqOJqDFpjlrqGhV6Q2aLw27CqU4qX7nFHb0K1Keq78xX4xSH3oy7 1AxjcVDoCy/ycidpebnC+pXcVpODecpRPOcTIl4UgP9GaRyurXpfXxMD1sOJJ/cV lPD8F41vp/D0FBrXEqCr2Q22+LIoE7OhKYK2Z2zZrwjJjRZGYQ+n/7UbQtyCAssG szOTx8Zz9S2+1zjrpakLMAY0WUEnTK6yfzVbRF+xcX7pHyN3nXBWnKdLYZtCStCW 6n7a9gopFK+o+1CYlbA3TnuhrXu2jcnErH1AUHj/N2RdNyUXz//VhDx2SkysVtY= =Tb3d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig416F52D9625AED311A2CBF20--