From 3EhbHSwoJBjsggiiXjYfXpdjXfi.ZljilgYXkdlldibdolrmp.Zlj@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 15 06:35:45 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3EhbHSwoJBjsggiiXjYfXpdjXfi.ZljilgYXkdlldibdolrmp.Zlj@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O2PEC-0003Bt-TP; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:45 -0700 Received: by vws19 with SMTP id 19sf691697vws.16 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=8oEuGR6CJfSCfMqgke498OXDQi/41Z7DDrWC+JhqzgY=; b=DXN34G6fRLIoXDA1zQuohzh+7oqBlFZYjZsaXGwSlQ37fEHnhMDU0CBcE2U+P/EjEV MvKPIYvlHvIrcq+LLrRWmqqLlvoZ2vCVtu+xX94+V6qAk0EigBdK/n/rCLce4TvFlJrT p1zmex03qpsB99Lc1qlIkiyRs2W4ssjugmGiY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=O0Pa7/hNSlftrBfWKQyOnOG0F1DOikDn2tZaQ4kDhD3Vfnia8kKQpUWGTZ5A87vb71 +8/F1IeJBUxaEvDs6zyxSljf4v85K7/WNG3oaQ/uIy2dRi6Ieto/KJdFkN/XMwS3CTVy NMtt3OdG+linCDvDwNqwKVchd+o8hsgM7YdKY= Received: by 10.220.60.140 with SMTP id p12mr648581vch.58.1271338514137; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.66.74 with SMTP id m10ls407670vci.4.p; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.114.76 with SMTP id d12mr1957722vcq.20.1271338510893; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.114.76 with SMTP id d12mr1957721vcq.20.1271338510865; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f193.google.com (mail-qy0-f193.google.com [209.85.221.193]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 27si3722061vws.5.2010.04.15.06.35.09; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.193 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.193; Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31so1388573qyk.20 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4a02d723-a934-434a-b626-0a3a9fbf803f@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <448505.50300.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201585.79379.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201004132253.05621.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4a02d723-a934-434a-b626-0a3a9fbf803f@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:35:08 -0300 Received: by 10.229.213.208 with SMTP id gx16mr3841627qcb.35.1271338509193; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.193 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/757378ee9060b26f Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Lindar wrote: > > 2. zo'e != lo. I have no idea where you folks got the idea, Nobody says zo'e=lo. We can say, roughly, "lo ..." = "zo'e noi ke'a ..." (that won't work as a general substitution in more complex syntactic environments, so if you quote me on that please do emphasize the "roughly"). In other words, "lo" converts a selbri into a sumti. "zo'e" provides the sumti skeleton, and "noi ke'a" provides the hook where the content given by "broda" can be hung. "lo" does all that in compact form, it has a built-in hook that must be used, you can't just use "lo" without hanging a "broda" on it. "zo'e" has no built-in hook, but you can add one to it with "noi ke'a". > but AFAIK > "zo'e" is not "lo broda" or anything like that, it is simply an > unspecified sumti, Of course. "lo broda" contains the semantic content of "broda", and "zo'e" by itself does not. Who ever said that "zo'e" is "lo broda"? > and therefore we don't need a new sumti "zo'e'e" or > any such thing. It's not a particular unspecified thing, it isn't a > specific unspecified thing, and it's not a thing which really is or > isn't or is called an unspecified thing, it's just an unspecified > sumti. "lo" is "zo'e" with a hook. "le", like "zo'e", has a hook, but it is not just "zo'e" with a hook, it adds something else. The idea of "zo'e'e" is that "le" is "zo'e'e" with a hook. But that doesn't really tell us much if we can't say what the additional content that "le" adds to "lo" is. (Or, equivalently, that "zo'e'e" adds to "zo'e".) You don't need to worry about any of this in order to use the language, but surely there is no harm in people discussing these things? mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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