From 3SyzHSwkJBooo1r.5267ou0owz.q20z2xpo1u22uzsu52836.q20@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 15 08:10:29 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3SyzHSwkJBooo1r.5267ou0owz.q20z2xpo1u22uzsu52836.q20@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O2Qi0-00074b-J7; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:10:29 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf905829gxk.4 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:10:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IENaW/YAB6Q32j5pP1Yef8gl5K+kVcy95KAVIEydF0E=; b=lMEd2shFHiVDdomCbSnMCrmFU3h19C+XrlgI7Eg21BJcuHIwOxcAHDqP5Kuwwj+om1 DfL3oF64ucJBK0GXbTcwppMrtjCGItK+pwy7iATE4Jtuobr6QsTXj3biYfJ8leqFw3va IhF+lYxo33bW2dk1ZSr6cmIc1MJLjv6nrU2Hc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LcwS2+CmsL7x0SeWgEXlMWwG1091So1trdRxGyjhAtLYNVUhdDY5BBzXB4Mfp59pAe L6kZ7oPtOONwA/kp/xCfd0wFE3EZK1bSO8wj9G45yyfkf65oCczONXoacDZ627TA0uBb fRWTaiI0zz2h7G5sM8Plsio1xk4ORFSB+va14= Received: by 10.90.19.14 with SMTP id 14mr96200ags.5.1271344203909; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:10:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.69.6 with SMTP id m6ls619124wed.1.p; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.90.20 with SMTP id d20mr21408wef.8.1271344199259; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.90.20 with SMTP id d20mr21407wef.8.1271344199241; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f182.google.com (mail-wy0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n31si1912605wbc.4.2010.04.15.08.09.58; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.182; Received: by mail-wy0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 28so665707wyb.41 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.86.129 with SMTP id w1mr191277wee.174.1271344197977; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.67] (87-194-76-9.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z3sm12505357wbs.4.2010.04.15.08.09.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BC72C43.7030108@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:09:55 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <448505.50300.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201585.79379.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201004132253.05621.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4a02d723-a934-434a-b626-0a3a9fbf803f@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4a02d723-a934-434a-b626-0a3a9fbf803f@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/78528d9c43da2260 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lindar, On 15/04/2010 07:43: > 1. And, despite all your complaining about how Lojban fails as a > logical language and how everything is absolutely wrong, you failed > to: > a. Explain in what way it has failed. > b. Suggest what to do next. I wasn't complaining; I was helpfully pointing out certain useful truths. F= urthermore, I have explained my points -- briefly in the 2010 discussions, = because they're not that germane to the main topic (of Robin's programme fo= r the BPFK), and ad nauseam for ten to fifteen years of earlier Lojban hist= ory.=20 A short recap: The specification ('declaration', 'prescription') of Lojban rules is very i= ncomplete, with regard to rules mapping forms to meaning, i.e. to rules tha= t specify what stuff means, because the designers of the language made a st= art in CLL, then baselined it and intended to leave it to usage to build th= at part of the language. The result is the quondam torrents of "what does X= mean" discussions (NB where X is ambiguous, not merely vague), where there= simply was no official answer. What can be done about this is to follow Ro= bin's initiative, and let the BPFK declare new official answers where there= formerly were none. That should see Lojban complete and meeting its users'= requirements. If new holes are found in the future, the BPFK can plug them= when they're found. The other point has to do with logical-languagehood (which is maybe where y= ou got the idea that "everything is absolutely wrong"). The key requirement= of what I think we would generally expect a logical language to be is that= it should encode predicate--argument structure in a way that is (a) unambi= guous, (b) compatible with human cognitive capabilities, (c) not significan= tly less concise than natural languages. (a) is easy to achieve (and Lojban= achieves it). (c) is very difficult to achieve, and Lojban fails it (as yo= u can see by writing out in predicate-logic form what you want to say, and = optionally then translating it into Lojban). As for (b), it's a fascinating= question, and we don't yet know what's compatible with human cognitive cap= abilities, but I do think Lojban's "da xi PA" method fairly clearly fails b= y placing excessive demands on short-term memory. As for what to do next ab= out all this, I've already said that I think it would require starting from= scratch to cr eate Logban3. While such a project would be within the overall scope of the= 'Logban' (Loglan/Lojban) project, I think it's important not to confuse Lo= jban and Logban3, and not to mix up discussion of one with discussion of th= e other. I'm sure the main Lojban list is not the best place to discuss Log= ban3. What *is* relevant to discussion on Lojban list is the simple recogni= tion that because Lojban fails goals (b) and (c) of logical-languagehood, i= t is unreasonable to insist on logical-languagehood being a continuing Lojb= an design goal in the specification of the the mission of the BPFK. =20 > 2. zo'e !=3D lo. I have no idea where you folks got the idea, but AFAIK > "zo'e" is not "lo broda" or anything like that, it is simply an > unspecified sumti, and therefore we don't need a new sumti "zo'e'e" or > any such thing. It's not a particular unspecified thing, it isn't a > specific unspecified thing, and it's not a thing which really is or > isn't or is called an unspecified thing, it's just an unspecified > sumti. "zo'e'e" would be a KOhA pointing to a specific thing. There is currently n= o such KOhA. Communicatively you can manage without it by using "le du" ins= tead. The rationale for "zo'e'e" was in the context of the suggested formal= periphrastic definitions of gadri in terms of KOhA NOI constructions. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.