From 3Uk3HSwoJBrIbbddSeTaSkYeSad.UgedgbTSfYggYdWYjgmhk.Uge@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 15 10:31:22 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3Uk3HSwoJBrIbbddSeTaSkYeSad.UgedgbTSfYggYdWYjgmhk.Uge@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O2SuK-0001GT-Py; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:31:22 -0700 Received: by vws19 with SMTP id 19sf797755vws.16 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:31:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DRD/+PnqNBAA3ObWExpQsKU94z29aq0X9ySyMe/Ojq4=; b=UNgj058AwIG7t45ii1/UXJxfGga1mHCwAK5F0dQxA6jFEDN5zy5Z2VVFOVf5L6dGGR AZmNI+1KWZ3XApBwP0yvIuUnPOntVkUE5kEO9C/LTddV5S+Zl//vqz4oGWvenlE/9EJg X/PL0HV8ljj2lNbhtukH1xkiYM2LwKRHEDUvE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=2xykh4s/3c5mtvGM+gflGlmGrGJWlLqv0x7AiPhf2OvtU9PngE5jeMNLc7XsjKBBdq hqQ66RXHS78Bos+vzwISfdKDz+HHsXjGFUTnNDl3wA/fqDETI/eNde1Lav8xD2UjT6p2 YtVS/Bbufs0REWo3ZKdYKT48BElfk0IDXZIPE= Received: by 10.220.127.15 with SMTP id e15mr12171vcs.53.1271352658726; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:30:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.22 with SMTP id n22ls554064vck.3.p; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.74.69 with SMTP id t5mr50650vcj.14.1271352657379; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.74.69 with SMTP id t5mr50649vcj.14.1271352657352; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f201.google.com (mail-qy0-f201.google.com [209.85.221.201]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 34si3933047vws.3.2010.04.15.10.30.56; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.201 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.201; Received: by qyk39 with SMTP id 39so2023006qyk.24 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:30:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:30:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BC741FF.30708@lojban.org> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <448505.50300.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201585.79379.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201004132253.05621.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4a02d723-a934-434a-b626-0a3a9fbf803f@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> <4BC741FF.30708@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:30:55 -0300 Received: by 10.229.232.198 with SMTP id jv6mr411301qcb.11.1271352656025; Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.201 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/33d26e8385fed297 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/8f1a8e587a4b15e1 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Robert LeChevalier wro= te: > Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >> >> You don't need to worry about any of this in order to use the >> language, but surely there is no harm in people discussing these >> things? > > If they are talking is Lojban, probably not. =A0If they are talking in > English, especially with you involved, some will see the discussion as > "xorlo mod 2" and then people will be asking Robin on IRC "Are you using > xorlo mod 2 or xorlo mod 1?". I don't share your fears, probably because of our different experiences with the language. You started learning Loglan when it was apparently drastically changing every month (from what you report). You also went through a relatively significant change in Lojban, the rafsi reallocation. I didn't exeprience any of those things. I started learning Lojban more than 15 years ago, and it has not changed in any significant way in all the time I've been using it. The texts from 15 years ago are practically indistinguishable from those of today (i.e. lots of texts are full of errors, because they were written by beginners, but there are also good texts and those that were good back then are still good). The kind of changes you fear simply do not exist. Maybe this is thanks to your obstinate conservatism, maybe only in part thanks to that, but the "pull the rug under your feet" kind of changes simply don't exist. The kind of improvements and clarifications that our discussions usually involve are about such minute details that all your constant talk about "relearning" sounds like complete nonsense to me. In fact, all this nonsense about "Are you using xorlo mod 2 or xorlo mod 1?", if it exists at all, is instigated by comments like yours, that suggest that something of ponderous magnitude is going on that one must learn about. I have tried to tell you in as many ways as I can that nothing of any importance is going on, and that you can simply tune out of the whole discussion, but you insist on claiming that something terribly threatening is going on even though you constantly remind us that you "don't understad xorlo", as if there was something impossibly difficult to understand. > That was why, ages back, I had no trouble with And Rosta setting up jbosk= e > as a list for such discussions as people talking about how Lojban could b= e > more logical than it is, and about improvements appropriate for LoCCan3. The issues that concern LoCCan3 should be moved someplace else, I agree. But this discussion was about our very own "le" (identical to Loglan's "le", and never changed) not about LoCCan3. > Experimental cmavo are kinda the border ground between the two. =A0It doe= sn't > necessarily harm the existing language to propose a new cmavo, put THAT i= s > where the "let usage decide" is supposed to come in. =A0If people are > unwilling to start using an experimental cmavo without it being prescribe= d, > it probably isn't necessary, or at least not appreciated. =A0And it likel= y > won't be appreciated with people seeing it in use and contrasted with the > language without. =A0Even then, the people =A0who need to see it as an > "improvement" will be those who actually use the language, which is why > discussing it in Lojban is a strong plus. When I respond to something written in Lojban, I use Lojban. When I respond to something written in English, I use English. That's just common courtesy. I don't see why discussions about Lojban in English should be forbidden. People interested in using the language can do so, people interested in discussing Lojban in Lojban can do so, people interested in discussing Lojban in English can do so. (And I suppose people interested in warning us that the end of Lojban as we know it is near can do so as well, so I'm not really trying to censor you, it's just another vain attempt to assuage your fears, I suppose.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.