From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCAjqLeBBoEhlIfSA@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 16 08:49:46 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O2nna-0001O1-4L; Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:46 -0700 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf1525738gwb.16 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kyPDqpkNpSzwhwKrxEeJnSvqyH37wXP4HNn0ZDsgFcI=; b=0nRC1goTL6hl+FNvVBkiwHeR6oZy+DFQomZ0oRaJV2IFzbpRmmWN63xGWsyAA6Xm76 xXP08VFwYQbylvF4Co2tj6QZhAQ1uxexcUksKXbnDLFEA1mGghDwheAQOYmF+RohawxC d3kyMbdJSgVOzKHGuRCPrRjqXcvAlou0nukg0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=2fLzBpK5W0kilruoQtGgyyVP7TcRLn1994YfLMvzIHY5bjYmcPzghNc/lIHU2BwNoM KR2XRKMaj7zeLVLYpF0SdhdsYolVjOV46ZXuE2JOWK4dPzs943XtxTy2mPmPAYQ6g+2B nvO2CkNF9zTx94JRIJNJ8sA6lqOV8UVEnoiOg= Received: by 10.91.93.4 with SMTP id v4mr475453agl.6.1271432960919; Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:20 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.7 with SMTP id t7ls2699354agl.1.p; Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr745908agi.4.1271432959478; Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr745907agi.4.1271432959433; Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 18si188691yxe.0.2010.04.16.08.49.18; Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 53859 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Apr 2010 15:49:18 -0000 Message-ID: <942042.53781.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: zKN1in8VM1lulQ75yNxvATX96Ucj.Gbwhyiruc_W6aQvO7X 2DthiIjwMY.up.9a3Q8BJZ2OFSkx8AkEcN4HFfS5dCZfXYklOwT65ywCw37v H7P6rkHe46MUlQ2G5JLe2b8GCIMRZC4y2e4StEythH.vkgAomOKWJdEMutZK WU.TANCtRTbBRdSKS_r1Sz0YlsLnhn5K9w7nB3tnOSzcbBSYX4_NfxYC7hQ_ uiB96JWZN8XvRjyGgmlUxds4WM3xJHDcXKF6V9BCJeyC_kAro9f0_.bH4Fi5 UhgVNo.NpqsUiHepaFFJgHey0Lv8i2BCJ_R_UNpAtKMmlJRLTu6Ns6Hi4y1P ec8JNnUz3fc4Z_F9iCF8T5wBR5o3JY1xj0CYu Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:17 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <448505.50300.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201585.79379.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201004132253.05621.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4a02d723-a934-434a-b626-0a3a9fbf803f@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com> <4BC76B7F.2050000@lojban.org> <7e8430e5-b1c4-477f-92d2-18c49b8d561f@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <2407ed9a-60f7-40e4-9d71-01e9ddf29737@r1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:49:17 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <2407ed9a-60f7-40e4-9d71-01e9ddf29737@r1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry 'bout that. Jargon is a pain (Lojban jargon is a double pain because= we use it while we are trying to figure out exactly what it means). But i= t saves space and time. Imagine how long any discussion about Lojban would= be without using "gismu" and "fu'ivla" and the like (or, preferably, their= English, etc., counterparts so all could join in). Rather than being frus= trated by the debate, join it. You may have to start by asking "dumb" ques= tions (ther's no such thing--at least the first time around), but your inte= rlocutors, being academics and thus fond of their own words, will answer an= d try to explain. Soon you'll be in a position to join right in -- as you = already are on the periphery. For instance, you mention 'ni', which sugges= ts that you have read up on its various suggested meanings. As a user of t= he language, you have some notion of what is needed or will work in the lan= guage (even if you can't imagine ever needing 'ni'), so you have some opinions and some reasons for them; speak out. Meanwhile, may I suggest (on another line already) that kitchen measure be = defined in the context of recipes, the environment where they are used (not= "teaspoon" but "n teaspoons of y") ----- Original Message ---- From: Lindar To: lojban Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 12:16:25 AM Subject: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo > I'm annoyed by my inability > to follow discussions due to the technical language surrounding it and > by the fact that we've wasted so much damn time arguing about really > small semantics instead of just making a damn decision and trying it > out. As a follow-up, I realise that I'm more so irritated by the fact that so much time and effort is spent in coming up with really big words and specific English-isms to describe how a Lojban word works, but I think that we're failing to cater to a major market here, namely idiots like myself that don't really follow what "lambda" and "veridical" are or really understand all of the scientific words that the senior jbo-ists throw around like softballs. Rather than gripe about all the little technical details, why don't we come up with a single, stupid, easy, definite answer (for things like "ni" for example)? Rather than gripe about how something was -intended- to be used, just decide on what the best way is to use a word and stick with it. So, long story short, I'm not scared of change, I'm annoyed by delays, indecisiveness, and overcomplicating every little damn thing. For all I care we could change "lo" back to "the only one in the universe" or whatever the hell it meant and we could change the word "djica" to mean "x1 is a pancake that demands x2 hears it roar (utterance) x3 with syrup x4 and flying pig x5" or whatever the hell as long as it makes more sense. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.