From lojban+bncCJGY6cDlFhCrlqfeBBoEBd0Wtw@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 17 07:52:55 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O39O4-0003zj-CC; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:55 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf2518101gxk.4 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:from:date :received:message-id:subject:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=aQo+rvwBY4bQ0jJXRKdULkoHGzj/lt3UfLc0JXe1HxU=; b=61efKvrQIx6YlQ4ZObJGWgsn+ovTC++3wK93gDGFYX6OuPlHZHQGsqn7eFldoRhLd0 uDO3i7KwoVJ/Uw4LyTtltM9GkfInIkx55N17Wala5RxE/c5pqKQIeoYBS6YeRJCSPMXK eFow/ta82od9kok3Oo30XX5QIUxH/h6uFh6Ws= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject :to:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=HXpieznWpk1ZSRuLuAUf5bhewZJ6QA54o67WT0lpOXjOFyNvJYxM04CKYloJzDdHw+ Olm2nxLPJYnZRjFH3DwR509Lsuxl/B9mfPVah2Kla48ehkPiL6kwipq+gLx6vmWGgg4O bDClgqLuJgkyjTPFUkNg2C+EtA4OcJd/mNn40= Received: by 10.90.20.18 with SMTP id 18mr806564agt.4.1271515947953; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.198.222 with SMTP id v72ls2101216wen.3.p; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.179.75 with SMTP id g53mr277355wem.5.1271515946718; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.179.75 with SMTP id g53mr277354wem.5.1271515946662; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f190.google.com (mail-pz0-f190.google.com [209.85.222.190]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h17si4699308wbh.5.2010.04.17.07.52.24; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.222.190 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.222.190; Received: by pzk28 with SMTP id 28so2685859pzk.11 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.109.10 with HTTP; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Oren Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:52:03 +0800 Received: by 10.143.20.31 with SMTP id x31mr1457198wfi.340.1271515943480; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Questions about jorne To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.222.190 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502cc4d232e6204846fe08e --00504502cc4d232e6204846fe08e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The jorne page on sourceforge [http://jorne.sourceforge.net/] doesn't mention OWL or appear to have any source code... is there a newer specification or codebase that I'm missing? The PEG parser? As for the ideas proposed on the page, I still need to be sold. There seems to be overlap with the W3C incubator projects for representing Wordnet in RDF/OWL http://www.w3.org/TR/wordnet-rdf/, and quite frankly, lojban's minimal and prescriptive vocabulary doesn't seem to offer much application here. Two separate overlapping W3C incubator projects seem to be more appropriate for semantic querying, Common Web Language (semantic representation) http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/cwl/XGR-cwl-20080331/ and Emotional Markup Language http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/emotion/XGR-emotionml-20081120/. Lojban, as a human language, can't offer what these robust proposals describe-- that is, you can't really argue that lojban is any more 'readable' than these languages, nor believe that it would be briefer or more thorough; but it may be fun to try and define the entire lojban vocabulary using these technologies. Or maybe that's what you meant all along? co'o mi'e korbi On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 19:49, Brian Eubanks wrote: > Hi Oren, > > We corresponded last year about the Jorne (Lojban RDF) project I am trying > to get started. > > The idea of using a Wordnet type approach is excellent. In fact, I would > love to see a LojWordNet in association with the Jorne OWL mapping. > > Are you still interested in working on an OWL mapping for Lojban gismu? If > so, I would like you to join the Sourceforge Jorne project. The growing > amount of linked data makes this a great time to do this. > > I am working with the PEG parser to import simple sentences into an RDF > triple store with the hope of converting between SPARQL and Lojban queries. > My Lojban is not even baby talk level yet, which is where I could use your > help too. I've been a lurker in the Lojban space but haven't spent time to > learn it. > > Regards, > Brian Eubanks > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:52 AM, Oren wrote: > > I like the idea of categories (or... tags!), I think the wiki is the >> place for it to happen, and I also think we shouldn't start from >> scratch. The thesaurus on the wiki page already segregates all gismu >> into hierarchical categories. We can make a page template that allows >> people to add "lujvo requests" to a category. A sister project to >> consider would be fleshing out that same ontology with the existing >> specialized lujvo lists and the lujvo flat file. >> >> I would also think that English/natlang glosses for the categories >> should be optional while lojban section titles be mandatory and >> default, for clarity. >> >> Back to the original topic of finding a minimal wordlist for a >> dictionary, I think the real forward-thinking approach would be to >> find some sufficiently open project similar to EuroWordNet [a >> multilingual WordNet], and then extracting a set number of unique >> *syslinks* (word senses), so that when we sit down to define 'spring' >> we don't have to remember jumping, metal coils and le printemps all by >> our erring-human selves. >> >> We could either use an arbitrary limit and go by frequency, and/or go >> for all syslinks that contain an arbitrary number of constituent >> languages. For example, only bother with 50% of all word senses that >> appear in three or more languages. >> >> co'o mi'e korbi >> >> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:13, Lindar wrote: >> >>> My absolutely fantastic idea that donri/kribacr started and never >>> finished (or never even started, but definitely came up before I >>> thought of it [but it's still my idea]) is/was/will be to have groups >>> of people select topics, and then go through and come up with as many >>> words related to that topic as possible. I got this idea one day as I >>> was sticking masking tape to pretty much everything around my >>> apartment and writing the Lojban word for it in sharpie. I came across >>> the simple fact that jvs didn't have words for "pot", "kitchen", >>> "frying pan", etc., so I came up with words for them, and I think at >>> least "kitchen" (jupku'a) is up there. I tried this again with >>> computer terminology and it completely failed as nobody could agree >>> properly on things (like "window", on which I still harshly/ >>> obnoxiously/rudely/insultingly disagree with xorxes). >>> >>> Rather than having one person sit through some big gehorsenshitfesten >>> (parden my German) trying to pick out the most common concepts in the >>> universe, why don't we use the wiki idea and create "conversational >>> categories" under which we can place words (probably a lot of fu'ivla >>> and lujvo) relevant to the topic. This will generate a much larger and >>> relevant body of information, and it's a -much- less daunting task. >>> For example, I am a recording engineer, so I would be likely to start >>> a "recording technology" topic, and possibly contribute to the "music" >>> topic as I would be more likely than anybody else to need/use words >>> like "Hertz"/"kHz", "microphone", "nearfield monitors", "synthesizer", >>> "MIDI", "mixing console", "bass", "treble", and I would probably be >>> more qualified to determine what kind of terminology in Lojban is the >>> most suitable. I'd also be fairly interested in the "kitchen and >>> cooking" topic, and I think a great many a newbie would be very >>> interested in the "household objects" topic, which would probably >>> include a pointer to the "kitchen and cooking" topic and maybe even a >>> "bathroom and hygiene" topic. This way people find what interests them >>> and contribute to topics that they enjoy, which doesn't necessarily >>> give an accurate picture of common usage based on an average through >>> world cultures, but definitely gives a good sampling of words to use >>> in conversation for the types of conversation that people learning >>> Lojban would have. It works as a double edged sword (of handiness) in >>> that we have people that are going to enjoy working because they're >>> learning how to talk about things that interest them by contributing >>> (which means things are more likely to get added, being that it's fun >>> and not a chore) -AND- that we have quick 'topic reference' >>> dictionaries so you can just leave the list open and peak through to >>> make it easier to carry on conversations about what an arse your >>> government leader is without having to poke through a list for ten >>> minutes while the conversation has already passed because you wanted a >>> word for "idiot" and jvs only had "stupid" as a gloss word for >>> tolmencre. (Bad example, you get the picture.) >>> >>> Perhaps we can quickly brainstorm a few major topics just to have >>> something up on a wiki? >>> >>> household items >>> kitchen and cooking >>> bathroom and hygiene >>> sports and spectating >>> automotive and driving >>> computer ((hot topic, prone to arguments)) >>> music >>> politics and law >>> school and education >>> work and the workplace >>> friends and family >>> >>> The idea would be to have a big list of topics (and possibly >>> subtopics), and on the pages of each we have brief glosses with Lojban >>> words, with links to a page detailing the place structure, examples of >>> usage, actual usage example if available, and potentially a relevant >>> image (for those that learn by seeing and not reading). >>> >>> Perhaps under "household items" is "garage", and on the page for that >>> it includes a little link for "see section: automotive and driving", >>> and perhaps even "garage" is also located under "automotive and >>> driving" or somesuch. >>> >>> Neatonifty idea, right? >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00504502cc4d232e6204846fe08e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The jorne page on sourceforge [http://jorne.sourceforge.net/] doesn't mention OWL or = appear to have any source code... is there a newer specification or codebas= e that I'm missing? The PEG parser?

As for the ideas proposed on the page, I still need to be so= ld. There seems to be overlap with the W3C incubator projects for represent= ing=A0Wordnet in RDF/OWL=A0ht= tp://www.w3.org/TR/wordnet-rdf/, and quite frankly, lojban's minima= l and prescriptive vocabulary doesn't seem to offer much application he= re.

Two separate overlapping W3C incubator projects seem to= be more appropriate for semantic querying, Common Web Language (semantic r= epresentation)=A0http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/cwl/XGR-cwl-20080331/=A0and E= motional Markup Language=A0http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/emotion/XGR-e= motionml-20081120/.

Lojban, as a human language, can't offer what these= robust proposals describe-- that is, you can't really argue that lojba= n is any more 'readable' than these languages, nor believe that it = would be briefer or more thorough; but it may be fun to try and define the = entire lojban vocabulary using these technologies. Or maybe that's what= you meant all along?

co'o = mi'e korbi

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 19:49, Brian Eubanks= <brian@bui= ldsoftware.com> wrote:
Hi Oren,

We corresponded last year about the Jorne (Lojban RDF) project I am trying = to get started.

The idea of using a Wordnet type approach is excellent. In fact, I would lo= ve to see a LojWordNet in association with the Jorne OWL mapping.

Are you still interested in working on an OWL mapping for Lojban gismu? If = so, I would like you to join the Sourceforge Jorne project. The growing amo= unt of linked data makes this a great time to do this.

I am working with the PEG parser to import simple sentences into an RDF tri= ple store with the hope of converting between SPARQL and Lojban queries. My= Lojban is not even baby talk level yet, which is where I could use your he= lp too. I've been a lurker in the Lojban space but haven't spent ti= me to learn it.

Regards,
Brian Eubanks

Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:52 AM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:

I like the idea of categories (or... tags!), I think the wiki is the
place for it to happen, and I also think we shouldn't start from
scratch. The thesaurus on the wiki page already segregates all gismu
into hierarchical categories. We can make a page template that allows
people to add "lujvo requests" to a category. A sister project to=
consider would be fleshing out that same ontology with the existing
specialized lujvo lists and the lujvo flat file.

I would also think that English/natlang glosses for the categories
should be optional while lojban section titles be mandatory and
default, for clarity.

Back to the original topic of finding a minimal wordlist for a
dictionary, I think the real forward-thinking approach would be to
find some sufficiently open project similar to EuroWordNet [a
multilingual WordNet], and then extracting a set number of unique
*syslinks* (word senses), so that when we sit down to define 'spring= 9;
we don't have to remember jumping, metal coils and le printemps all by<= br> our erring-human selves.

We could either use an arbitrary limit and go by frequency, and/or go
for all syslinks that contain an arbitrary number of constituent
languages. For example, only bother with 50% of all word senses that
appear in three or more languages.

co'o mi'e korbi

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 15:13, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
My absolutely fantastic idea that donri/kribacr started and never
finished (or never even started, but definitely came up before I
thought of it [but it's still my idea]) is/was/will be to have groups of people select topics, and then go through and come up with as many
words related to that topic as possible. I got this idea one day as I
was sticking masking tape to pretty much everything around my
apartment and writing the Lojban word for it in sharpie. I came across
the simple fact that jvs didn't have words for "pot", "k= itchen",
"frying pan", etc., so I came up with words for them, and I think= at
least "kitchen" (jupku'a) is up there. I tried this again wit= h
computer terminology and it completely failed as nobody could agree
properly on things (like "window", on which I still harshly/
obnoxiously/rudely/insultingly disagree with xorxes).

Rather than having one person sit through some big gehorsenshitfesten
(parden my German) trying to pick out the most common concepts in the
universe, why don't we use the wiki idea and create "conversationa= l
categories" under which we can place words (probably a lot of fu'i= vla
and lujvo) relevant to the topic. This will generate a much larger and
relevant body of information, and it's a -much- less daunting task.
For example, I am a recording engineer, so I would be likely to start
a "recording technology" topic, and possibly contribute to the &q= uot;music"
topic as I would be more likely than anybody else to need/use words
like "Hertz"/"kHz", "microphone", "nearf= ield monitors", "synthesizer",
"MIDI", "mixing console", "bass", "trebl= e", and I would probably be
more qualified to determine what kind of terminology in Lojban is the
most suitable. I'd also be fairly interested in the "kitchen and cooking" topic, and I think a great many a newbie would be very
interested in the "household objects" topic, which would probably=
include a pointer to the "kitchen and cooking" topic and maybe ev= en a
"bathroom and hygiene" topic. This way people find what interests= them
and contribute to topics that they enjoy, which doesn't necessarily
give an accurate picture of common usage based on an average through
world cultures, but definitely gives a good sampling of words to use
in conversation for the types of conversation that people learning
Lojban would have. It works as a double edged sword (of handiness) in
that we have people that are going to enjoy working because they're
learning how to talk about things that interest them by contributing
(which means things are more likely to get added, being that it's fun and not a chore) -AND- that we have quick 'topic reference'
dictionaries so you can just leave the list open and peak through to
make it easier to carry on conversations about what an arse your
government leader is without having to poke through a list for ten
minutes while the conversation has already passed because you wanted a
word for "idiot" and jvs only had "stupid" as a gloss w= ord for
tolmencre. (Bad example, you get the picture.)

Perhaps we can quickly brainstorm a few major topics just to have
something up on a wiki?

household items
kitchen and cooking
bathroom and hygiene
sports and spectating
automotive and driving
computer ((hot topic, prone to arguments))
music
politics and law
school and education
work and the workplace
friends and family

The idea would be to have a big list of topics (and possibly
subtopics), and on the pages of each we have brief glosses with Lojban
words, with links to a page detailing the place structure, examples of
usage, actual usage example if available, and potentially a relevant
image (for those that learn by seeing and not reading).

Perhaps under "household items" is "garage", and on the= page for that
it includes a little link for "see section: automotive and driving&quo= t;,
and perhaps even "garage" is also located under "automotive = and
driving" or somesuch.

Neatonifty idea, right?

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--00504502cc4d232e6204846fe08e--