From lojban+bncCICntNPQBRDG6aneBBoEja598A@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 17 19:56:32 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f160.google.com ([209.85.222.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O3KgO-0008Dq-8G; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:32 -0700 Received: by pzk32 with SMTP id 32sf1035723pzk.25 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:date :in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:received :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0R+6ysHiNofyyMeCnZhSqdQx3EApmCLzVDVc+AvpGhY=; b=sXKF6F7MXDY291YCnzhF+farsLsm9oFmnlu3emr+ZoZ+naVIOF6yVps2rPEJwJQgRB Ti9EVeDXz+uqmUauKcH+7l/fYX7P6FCVHYyGPsAWXvzRPYjuRB76WUFMiQbB4vs6Auho kIH22sLkxPGTU/NEaZJab4JjKVuubebMYali8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=uI9wVwP0dM73R4JSKQd/SvM6S/hn+bfhdq29Yu6KjmwZSsmAqZoMVLkEmYlaMitNZe qiM/UWPV7VEx3di09M5DQ7WwJwvtoLza8QAAKWDhJIKNxXjrU4Tls80Bx99U2x324/gt loLgxyA9S0c6aX6MKSJA7oAqb41AywXXSHxOQ= Received: by 10.142.118.27 with SMTP id q27mr273051wfc.21.1271559366761; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.8.28 with SMTP id 28ls6458305wfh.0.p; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.85.6 with SMTP id n6mr695086wfl.3.1271559365994; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.85.6 with SMTP id n6mr695084wfl.3.1271559365957; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f168.google.com (mail-yw0-f168.google.com [209.85.211.168]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si883293pzk.15.2010.04.17.19.56.05; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.211.168 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lindarthebard@yahoo.com) client-ip=209.85.211.168; Received: by ywh40 with SMTP id 40so2463762ywh.12 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by j37g2000yqe.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 173.196.20.139 References: User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100401 Ubuntu/9.10 (karmic) Firefox/3.5.9,gzip(gfe) Received: by 10.150.167.5 with SMTP id p5mr249160ybe.10.1271559365386; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <67c00d0e-2eb5-430c-917a-16aebaed7afb@j37g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Questions about jorne From: Lindar To: lojban X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.211.168 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lindarthebard@yahoo.com) smtp.mail=lindarthebard@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NOTE: Skip to the bottom for the short version. > [1] From the specifications: =93Concepts included in any natural > language can be the vocaburary of CWL.=93 Oh, so you're suggesting we use this to create some kind of... documentation? Translator? I still don't get what you mean... > [1] From the EmotionML specifications, "users can create their custom > vocabularies." Nifty. > [2] Note the graph structure =A0of CWL: [Bunch of BS cut out.] Yeah, I have no idea what that means, and consequently is of no use to me. Looks random BS somebody wrote down to stick on a screen to look like they're programming something when they don't have any idea how to actually programme, rather than anything actually intelligible. > ...Can lojban allow that? What? All that emotion schtuphs? Yeah, it can, newbies pretty much use nothing but that. Every single little thing you described on that emoticrap list is feasible in Lojban, AFAIK. > A brief embedded triple structure for a > forty-one-type-of-relation directed graph markup? Sure, but but it > wont be intelligible lojban. Yeah, that sounds like a bunch of crap made up for a Star Trek script. Simple English, please. =3DD > A limitless vocabulary? The discussion began because we're trying to > work up to a 6000 word dictionary... endless additions don't seem > feasible. You seem to be missing some big key here. We are, right now, documenting vocabulary to be used in common conversation, which we will begin to translate into Lojban and develop any missing words or terminology. Just because we don't have them doesn't mean we aren't going to have them at all ever. There are probably some 2 to 6 million intelligible lujvo that can be created (just taking a guess at 1600x1600x1600 and assuming that a lot of them are going to be useless), plus fu'ivla borrowed from native languages of origin (most commonly Greek or Latin I would assume due to scientific standards). 4700-some words aren't really a big deal in the scope of things. Maybe, instead of being pessimistic, you could help the BPFK translation project or Conversation Guide project so we can actually have a finished product to use as source-material for a dictionary? =3DD > An expansion of emotional ontology, and allowing of custom vocabulary? > Doesn't seem that Lojban is designed to be that flexible. ...uh...yeah, actually, it is. lujvo and fu'ivla are designed for exactly that, unless I'm missing your meaning. As for the "emotional ontology"... uhh... go play around with selma'o UI or something... I'm not sure really what you're trying to get at with this part. > My above questions are probably due to my misunderstanding of the > specifications of Jorne; it makes much more sense to try and describe > [finite] lojban in terms of these frameworks, and not try and, like > these frameworks, attempt to describe [infinite] natural language text > and emotion. This looks like bad Am-Eng. Did you mean "It makes much more sense to try to describe finite lojban in terms of these frameworks rather than to try to describe infinite natural language text and emotion." ? Cos if not, I have no clue what you're trying to say. If that is what you meant, then I agree in the context of choosing one option or the other, but I fail to see what any of this has to do with anything (and if it isn't, could you please rewrite it in Lojban?). Why did you bring it up? What is it meant to accomplish? It seems that you're suggesting an attempt to try to document Lojban with this, which has absolutely nothing to do with the dictionary effort then, and why did you bring up the dictionary in the first place? We don't need a method of defining Lojban using some kind of programming language that uses single English gloss words as that's pretty much what we've got now, and that's why we're having the problems we're having right now. We need formal, human readable, plain-text, simple English translations for stupid people, and we need formal definitions for pretty much every cmavo in the ma'oste. I think whatever this is that you're proposing is completely unrelated to the dictionary effort, so let's drop that idea entirely from the conversation. What, EXACTLY, are you suggesting we do with 'jorne', and what is it meant to accomplish? --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.