From 3fVy1SwcJBtoHUPHAOSCI6EH.8KIHKF76JCKKCHACNKQLO.8KI@groups.bounces.google.com Thu Apr 01 19:55:29 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f160.google.com ([209.85.211.160]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3fVy1SwcJBtoHUPHAOSCI6EH.8KIHKF76JCKKCHACNKQLO.8KI@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxX2R-0001tv-Sw for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:55:28 -0700 Received: by ywh32 with SMTP id 32sf1849986ywh.28 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:55:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=UQsq9jywTr3YkzHurEDVTouOXD2Vqbc960igPYKT7bo=; b=6dd8fq0PgKbFHpTFUzZQL/LhA2a9IlYifCEkUYzqjtv9OwqCvnrQ6VsXFGGl9ZazTy K9R+WyMCdVbrnI29hjoy7zxULxqnsHZzuVlMhCmXSMhzq0NQV0Zm4qrmGVWCx/WCt1Ce z2/xwGlVECPOLfHwrH8quOeqwgQ45o5Wzez94= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=bisGzV0GrFEpjowkohe+ePDd9qCrW7CMOtwd9+HSa85UWGMh8QHQLV1R1efqjT+8N5 JvJqYI5/mgAOpDzBBxQm+aG2jBWUCCZhXC1O4cY0D7zdgPbPCZ7Ttyr1HsV/QWTGTag2 jvKonhPsRZHjW8zskY+sU1gpYC17Niu9JyY4c= Received: by 10.100.81.4 with SMTP id e4mr55379anb.67.1270176893849; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:54:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.91.7 with SMTP id t7ls363744agl.1.p; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.24.19 with SMTP id b19mr2371344agj.11.1270176892360; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.24.19 with SMTP id b19mr2371341agj.11.1270176892027; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f54.google.com (mail-gw0-f54.google.com [74.125.83.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si781564ywh.3.2010.04.01.19.54.50; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.54; Received: by gwaa20 with SMTP id a20so363345gwa.27 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:54:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.242.9 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:54:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 22:54:50 -0400 Received: by 10.101.106.1 with SMTP id i1mr4578859anm.24.1270176890710; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Summary: Cultural fu'ivla From: MorphemeAddict To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/6edf3f52e6f491ba X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/msg/b45575848e53ab2d Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5bf165f6bff0483381afd --001636c5bf165f6bff0483381afd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone ever said that individual words shouldn't be culturally biased, e.g., your example of "portugala/portugese"? I have only ever heard that the *language *shouldn't be culturally biased. stevo On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Christopher Doty wrot= e: > This was brought up before, but I don't know that it was closed "closed" > exactly. As I said earlier today, though, using the autonyms directly > creates any number of problems, one of which could even be the claim that > doing so makes these words more culturally biased than the international > standard. > > I mean, how do we do this with autonyms? You have "portugala," presumabl= y > for Portuguese, but far closer to the autonym would be "portugese" or > "portugesa." What about groups that don't have names for their languages? > What about places where the language is called two or three different > things? Which do we use? Do we keep the "ki-" prefixes, along with thei= r > variants, for all of the Bantu languages? If so, then why not keep the > "lingua" with "lingua latina"? What about, for example, the Athabaskan > languages, where the autonym is nearly always "people's (language)," and = the > languages are close enough that we'd have to figure out how to distinguis= h > 20 words which are all something like "dene" and remember which goes with > which. What do we do in Mexico, where speakers of completely unrelated > languages often call their language "mexicano"? Do we just have "mexkano= " > for all of these 20 languages? > > The only thing I can see that we get with the autonyms is that they are t= he > autonyms, but we get a whole bunch of other issues; I'm just not sure it'= s > worth it. I'm willing to be persuaded*, but no one has really argued for > autonyms for any particular reason.. > > Chris > > *In fact, I'd kind of LIKE to be persuaded--as a linguist who works with > minority language communities, I have always been in favor of using the > autonymic term when possible. But, if we really want the Lojban terms to= be > culturally neutral and as accessible to possible to people around the wor= ld, > then using autonyms is the wrong answer, as far as I can tell. > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 14:20, komfo,amonan wrote: > >> IMHO I can't see any reason to not base such words wholly on the autonym= , >> eschewing the ISO codes, especially considering that we have, for the fi= rst >> time in history, the ability to easily access the autonyms of 99% of the >> world's ethnicities & languages. And also since that second code is mere= ly >> an abbreviation of the language family, which doesn't seem like a sensib= le >> candidate for inclusion in the fu'ivla. >> >> I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read every word= . >> So if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I apologize. >> Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if the language n= ame >> derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latter, but that's= not >> the point I'm making): >> >> portugala >> po'olska >> .arxabi >> .argona >> ba'anla >> bamnana >> kernoue >> ko'orsu >> dzo'onxa >> >> mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Christopher Doty wrote: >> >>> Alright, so, here are some revised/reconcocted fu'ivla for languages. >>> I decided that there wasn't really a good way to go about standardizin= g how >>> the two codes fits into the fu'ivla, but the main one was that, if you = have >>> a seven-letter fu'ivla, you get an extra C or V, and that seems like it >>> should be based on the autonym (or at least the source for the ISO code= ), >>> and not just a random consonant. >>> >>> I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't necessarily feel ver= y >>> strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even though a bit o= f >>> opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO codes. For the >>> letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a code and as the sound /k= /, I >>> changed the "c" to "ck," which represents both the writing and the soun= d, >>> plus making an easy, freebie cluster. "C"s pronounced as "ch" became "= tc," >>> although in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-letter ISO = code. >>> When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I left is "c." >>> >>> fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family) >>> portine - Portuguese (Portugu=C3=AAs/por/ine) >>> polsine - Polish (polski/pol/ine) >>> .arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/afa) >>> .argo'ine - Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s/arg/ine) >>> bengine - Bengali (=E0=A6=AC=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=82=E0=A6=B2=E0=A6=BE [=CB= =88ba=C5=8Bla]/ben/ine) >>> bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan) >>> ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine) >>> ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine) >>> dzositV - Dzongkha (=E0=BD=A2=E0=BE=AB=E0=BD=BC=E0=BD=84=E0=BC=8B=E0=BD= =81/dzo/sit) >>> Etc. >>> >>> How do this look to people? >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Doty wr= ote: >>> >>>> Yeah, it might not end up working; or, rather, it might have to be a >>>> more general, to say, for example, that all of the fu'ivla for languag= es >>>> will be of eight letters (or something), but without any reference to = a >>>> specific structure... >>>> >>>> I'll poke at it and see what pops out. >>>> >>>> 2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas >>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > So, for example, if the language ISO code is >>>>> > CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'ivla= , >>>>> etc., >>>>> > for each of the possible combinations. >>>>> >>>>> The immediate problem I see there is that the CC has high chances of >>>>> not being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster. >>>>> >>>>> If it's just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in >>>>> front to get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's more of a >>>>> problem. >>>>> >>>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5bf165f6bff0483381afd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone ever said that individual words shouldn't be culturally= biased, e.g., your example of "portugala/portugese"?=C2=A0 I hav= e only ever heard that the language shouldn't be culturally bi= ased.
=C2=A0
stevo

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Christopher Doty= <suomichris@g= mail.com> wrote:
This was brought up before, but = I don't know that it was closed "closed" exactly. =C2=A0As I = said earlier today, though, using the autonyms directly creates any number = of problems, one of which could even be the claim that doing so makes these= words more culturally biased than the international standard.=20

I mean, how do we do this with autonyms? =C2=A0You have "portugal= a," presumably for Portuguese, but far closer to the autonym would be = "portugese" or "portugesa." What about groups that don&= #39;t have names for their languages? =C2=A0What about places where the lan= guage is called two or three different things? =C2=A0Which do we use? =C2= =A0Do we keep the "ki-" prefixes, along with their variants, for = all of the Bantu languages? =C2=A0If so, then why not keep the "lingua= " with "lingua latina"? =C2=A0What about, for example, the A= thabaskan languages, where the autonym is nearly always "people's = (language)," and the languages are close enough that we'd have to = figure out how to distinguish 20 words which are all something like "d= ene" and remember which goes with which. =C2=A0What do we do in Mexico= , where speakers of completely unrelated languages often call their languag= e "mexicano"? =C2=A0Do we just have "mexkano" for all o= f these 20 languages?

The only thing I can see that we get with the autonyms is that they ar= e the autonyms, but we get a whole bunch of other issues; I'm just not = sure it's worth it. =C2=A0I'm willing to be persuaded*, but no one = has really argued for autonyms for any particular reason..

Chris

*In fact, I'd kind of LIKE to be persuaded--as a linguist who work= s with minority language communities, I have always been in favor of using = the autonymic term when possible. =C2=A0But, if we really want the Lojban t= erms to be culturally neutral and as accessible to possible to people aroun= d the world, then using autonyms is the wrong answer, as far as I can tell.=

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 14:20, komfo,amonan <komfoamonan@gmail.com> wrote:
IMHO I can't see any reason = to not base such words wholly on the autonym, eschewing the ISO codes, espe= cially considering that we have, for the first time in history, the ability= to easily access the autonyms of 99% of the world's ethnicities & = languages. And also since that second code is merely an abbreviation of the= language family, which doesn't seem like a sensible candidate for incl= usion in the fu'ivla.

I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read e= very word. So if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I = apologize. Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if th= e language name derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latte= r, but that's not the point I'm making):

portugala
po'olska
.arxabi
.argona
ba'anla
bamna= na
kernoue
ko'orsu
dzo'onxa

mu'o mi'e komfo= ,amonan


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Christopher Doty <= ;suomichris@gmail= .com> wrote:
Alright, so, here are some revised/reconcocted fu'ivla for languag= es. =C2=A0I decided that there wasn't really a good way to go about sta= ndardizing how the two codes fits into the fu'ivla, but the main one wa= s that, if you have a seven-letter fu'ivla, you get an extra C or V, an= d that seems like it should be based on the autonym (or at least the source= for the ISO code), and not just a random consonant.=20

I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't necessarily fee= l very strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even though a bi= t of opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO codes. =C2=A0F= or the letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a code and as= the sound /k/, I changed the "c" to "ck," which repres= ents both the writing and the sound, plus making an easy, freebie cluster. = =C2=A0"C"s pronounced as "ch" became "tc," al= though in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-letter ISO co= de. =C2=A0When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I left is "= ;c."

fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family)
portine - Portuguese (Portugu=C3=AAs/por/ine)
polsine - Polish (polski/pol/ine)
.arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/afa)
.argo'ine - Argonese (Argon=C3=A9s/arg/ine)
bengine - Bengali (=E0=A6=AC=E0=A6= =BE=E0=A6=82=E0=A6=B2=E0=A6=BE [=CB=88ba=C5=8Bla]/ben/ine)
bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan)
ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine)
ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine)
dzositV - Dzongkha (=E0=BD=A2=E0=BE=AB=E0=BD=BC= =E0=BD=84=E0=BC=8B=E0=BD=81/dzo/sit)
Etc.

How do this look to people?=

Chris

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Doty <= span dir=3D"ltr"><suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, it might not e= nd up working; or, rather, it might have to be a more general, to say, for = example, that all of the fu'ivla for languages will be of eight letters= (or something), but without any reference to a specific structure...=20

I'll poke at it and see what pops out.

2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com><= br>
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote= :=20

> =C2=A0=C2=A0So, for example, if the language ISO code is
&= gt; CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'= ivla, etc.,
> for each of the possible combinations.

The immediate problem I see there is that the CC has high chances ofnot being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster.

If it'= ;s just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in
front to= get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's more of a problem.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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