From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDYuazeBBoE1YTvqw@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 18 07:53:43 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f144.google.com ([209.85.210.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O3VsO-0001BJ-6K; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:43 -0700 Received: by yxe8 with SMTP id 8sf2886447yxe.25 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=g0lPTjLwjMliAhXoDgWy+Rrsrn3JZhVJ5VTM3VIQ82U=; b=qqEa0mHsRdOAzXkh0Xwbw2fgcKjKMQhz4x3d0V/7DMqgXN6RtmXNvtJXM1FUCZUqIs GxGA9xbdeofrmlXCjhzEcUMcawB+hTs2nkJG+JLLuHc8BGGI7tCC/Tz0QItbhTvZoueW JbL1+fO10iAdG3gWpwcw/rTczGYwhFBAVZM4s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=teVfp7lTS3XzQzTSbylfFT2x7TMorUTA5E5LClVJmO7p9ZPG/hxQeV0Ni0iyOplTO1 UBA/xaVzr6kVXTD2+5Qiir1TrDTGbs1HYg04u+fmUT798Z6nDugez4x77tMWRTM2vKyf /2FV2H8N5R383kgYfvycx415J3zXxpsDPrOHM= Received: by 10.100.248.1 with SMTP id v1mr270558anh.71.1271602392461; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.142.37 with SMTP id u37ls7365676ann.7.p; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.197.17 with SMTP id z17mr2918960anp.6.1271602390559; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.197.17 with SMTP id z17mr2918959anp.6.1271602390514; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.124]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 17si6037511anx.2.2010.04.18.07.53.09; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.124; Received: (qmail 83236 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Apr 2010 14:53:08 -0000 Message-ID: <851523.82178.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: feInTrcVM1nSWWvLed.jxO3dyI_5vrALNSzoiTsQfI.jpMZ FEVnQs57ahIfSNfJhtWiQVVq84nETqVBffRZOGcFej0WB6zCPxZ8dOFacFax XwF3.dQO7IH5mNx2Wm8lfSPiLcMBA0P.jA0qxpNNqrCip0OMLTovS3HQ4flx K4aKuUI806g5m5M1g3aaGCIjpSb0bImnBNjLgRMv86quFAP17JumHDhYM2rq cTAapejCOmUfdtUmCSz4Q3w6WnzKuHsveQrQbo897ow7Mu5wnmUms7YE1dfE TrTaicfv0WL5BqfRRbLVdg7JlmKhKsQkTIERskBxoooQIQ9H_mqRyc6nos4z F_wgdwss7Kw-- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:08 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BC4B763.6070903@gmail.com> <4BC52345.7010303@gmail.com> <4BC9056F.9040705@gmail.com> <618898.68218.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <381899.30620.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:53:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] {le} in xorlo To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------ I'm glad to hear it can be reduced to five (though that still seems a lot);= I had memories of an array of jeks, guheks, and (seemingly) countless othe= r ---eks. The thought of getting down to just two looks about right, thoug= h. I do see that this is somewhat illusory, however, in that these two can= not just be used as they stand but must be supplemented in various ways (wi= th gi- and i- and gu- and whatever else). So still not optimal. Actually, when logical notation allows a term before a predicate, it works = better: (AxF), exactly matching the ideal -- but impermissible -- Lojban fo= rm. I agree that 'poi' is the best Lojban solution, but you seem to have p= reempted it. You have it right except that the noi/poi distinction is not now needed (an= d, indeed, the semantically irrelevant -- though pragmatically important --= broda can be dropped altogether for 'lo'). I am not sure what is wrong wit= h the internal 'su'o' for 'lo' -- pragmatic considerations or are you sayin= g that there is no 'su'o' in the background of 'lo'? That's OK, if you promise, I'd just forget it anyhow. Yeah, there's bee so much discussion lately about how to display Lojban tha= t little has been said about what it all means. I'm not clear about why we need two quantifiers with plural reference (I th= ink plural quantification just follows -- or reference follows from quantif= ication). Plural whatever replaces singulary seamlessly -- singulary just = being a (not so) special case and one that need not ever be explicitly call= ed upon. =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:20:08 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] {le} in xorlo On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:57 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > Familiar Feces ua je'e > 21 (iirc) versions of 'e' all amounting to logical "and". Arose because t= he use of one such ('ga... gi') was incorrect and another ('gu'a ... gu'i'= ) was required to do the same work. The others are a nice point as well, o= f course, though with a different motivation. Yes, I realized after I had already posted that you must have meant ge/gu'e= . The situation is not as bad as 21 though, there's just the two forethought ge/gu'e and three afterthought .e/je/gi'e, so five in all. "gu'e" should just be deprecated, and for all intents and purposes de facto it is, since practically nobody ever uses it. "je" should be extended to cover the function of ".e", thus making ".e" redundant. JOI already does both functions, so there's no syntactic impediment there. "gi'e" can be replaced with "gije". That would leave just "ge" for forethought, and "je" for afterthought. > The best one this week is to incorporate the the whole into a single line= 'ro da broda' (roughly, since this is a sentence), much like the standard = system (AxFx). It has been discussed to death, but your move assumes that = there are no restricted quantifiers in Lojban, which is at least historical= ly false. As you say, "ro da broda" won't work because it is a bridi. And "Fx" has to be a full bridi, not just a single selbri like "broda", so I can hardly see a more economical solution than the insertion of a simple "poi". The standard system can get away with (AxFx) only because it doesn't allow terms in front of the selbri. > Goodness, I thought we did have plural quantifiers and that was at least = part of what xorlo was ultimately about. The point here however, is that '= poi' goes with an internal quantifier in the construction of 'lo' qhilw 'no= i' is an external quantifier in the construction of 'le'. If I interpret what you are saying correctly, you are saying that: lo broda cu brode =3D (illocutionary:) su'o da poi broda zo'u da brode le broda cu broda =3D su'o da noi broda zo'u (illocutionary:) da brode Thus you are adopting andle, but not xorlo, because you still want an illocutionary su'o to come for free with lo. (Or I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.) > Only if you promise never to use it again. I'll try, but I'm not promising. :) > As you say, a change in the official rules but not in practice -- except = for a bunch of folk arguing endlessly about whether 'lo pavyseljirna cu bla= bi' is true or false id there are no unicorns. Fortunately that has not been discussed for quite a while now. > Well, in one sense, "something" ('su'o') was always plural, but I suppose= you mean directly. Again, I thought that was that xorlo was finally about= . To be sure, I prefer (from habit) "bunch" talk, but, since they are the = same thing, plural reference is fine too. Sorry about the "a". > > Overall, then, I guess I was taking an optimistic reading on the situatio= n with plural reference / L-sets. I thought it was stare decisis and, in f= act, it is either not settled or still actively resisted. I wonder why? (n= ot enough people have had enough logic to have my engrained habits, and I t= ook to it fairly directly -- barring some weird thing McKay said about rest= rcted quantifiers and about the whole thing being bright shiny new) I don't think plural reference is resisted. And plural quantification (which is something additional to plural reference) is not so much resisted as ignored. There just aren't enough people interested or informed on the issue to make any decision about it. And if we were to adopt it we would need two different universal quantifiers instead of just "ro". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.