From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRC2lK7eBBoEQqiAJA@googlegroups.com Sun Apr 18 15:40:19 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f144.google.com ([209.85.210.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O3d9w-00077R-Ke; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:40:18 -0700 Received: by yxe8 with SMTP id 8sf3125948yxe.25 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:40:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HEjEl8dkuJBFvG34a9xLu9LUT0hlVDtd6fWFhk2cdX8=; b=NZCoXaHwumyVGOq3DeAbxOENKJjeuG3iKyFebkc34UgNEri/rwjSK00LuVHoghOzzr 9UZV1pF/s++Q25sSuermIAo6t7U6COKTxbFvMYgav3naDEPC3miqW8LIyYjHMLMtFC0h QZub3eAIFDiEKq/3VK9WV4unc0waGi0dqiWFk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=o7AYhbZPf/FUXP050DSZIAEXBACLesWiPLqEK2eMgGKk9MVrKX6aJmi6rf93EYZbZA LD9nySWIDc+oCCdH4IQbjwKsD+feFuVvVJG3fo3S/l18y0AqEdFkGvU/+1dDIcHbtinV tkvrEuOmtE9N1CSKYuziJ4arhpfXHV/d+dCq0= Received: by 10.91.188.10 with SMTP id q10mr1238532agp.49.1271630390201; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:39:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.24.105 with SMTP id w83ls2069202wew.1.p; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.179.75 with SMTP id g53mr396991wem.5.1271630388126; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.179.75 with SMTP id g53mr396990wem.5.1271630388106; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f203.google.com (mail-qy0-f203.google.com [209.85.221.203]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id g1si1238708wbg.2.2010.04.18.15.39.46; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.203 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.203; Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so4121846qyk.7 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <851523.82178.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4BBE188B.8070807@lojban.org> <4BC52345.7010303@gmail.com> <4BC9056F.9040705@gmail.com> <618898.68218.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <381899.30620.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <851523.82178.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:39:46 -0300 Received: by 10.229.238.70 with SMTP id kr6mr5791934qcb.49.1271630386280; Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {le} in xorlo From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.203 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 11:53 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > You have it right except that the noi/poi distinction is not now needed (= and, indeed, the semantically irrelevant -- though pragmatically important = -- broda can be dropped altogether for 'lo'). I am not sure what is wrong w= ith the internal 'su'o' for 'lo' -- pragmatic considerations or are you say= ing that there is no 'su'o' in the background of 'lo'? The internal su'o is pretty harmless, it is not even a quantifier, it's just a cardinality. But in treating "lo broda cu brode" as "(illocutionary:) su'o da poi broda cu brode" you are saying that "lo" has the illocutionary force of a quantifier, an outer quantifier, a true quantifier, not the so called "inner quantifier" which is not really a quantifier at all. > I'm not clear about why we need two quantifiers with plural reference (I = think plural quantification just follows -- or reference follows from quant= ification). =A0Plural whatever replaces singulary seamlessly -- singulary j= ust being a (not so) special case and one that need not ever be explicitly = called upon. Well, suppose {A, B, C} is the set of my friends, and I want to say that each of my friends owns one car. With ordinary singular "ro", I just say: ro lo pendo be mi cu ponse pa karce Which just says that: A owns one car. B owns one car. C owns one car. but if "ro" is plural, then I am also saying that: A & B own one car. A & C own one car. B & C own one car. A & B & C own one car. i.e. "any one or more of my friends own one car". A lot more cars are now being owned. In general, the plural "ro" says too much. We could still say just what we want by restricting: ro lo pendo be mi be'o poi pa mei cu ponse pa karce so in that sense we don't "need" the singular "ro", but such restrictions sound ugly and unnatural. In terms of usability the singular "ro" is the one that we most often want. For su'o it is not so clear, but having a plural "su'o" and no plural "ro" would also be odd, so that's why I say that we would need at least two "ro" if quantifiers were plural. (Sorry about the empty post earlier.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.