From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDC4LbeBBoE1mUOdw@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 20 06:47:13 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4Dn6-0007nk-DQ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:47:13 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf5167918gxk.4 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:46:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DnaVfIuBQbEJpvtXF5mGpxbIedkbYX1uveZ3JGF1PTU=; b=Y+o9Y73SrkNtv7dgUGAyUoCt+8T1+IVaCO72xXlt92WaJtQ9Ui21YFF6DIQGgPzKUj Xw+c2aJ6wjQ40OlcEAQoOTts+fzuNuUfGV37eDRusjZqOmR4l7vb+ObqYxO9aMVl6ONs ZOA8ey8kUO20xg+Jcl5TFi0PQUCb9XF57q3gk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=3TrPR3+eciIShSca1aniHB/uvCHmbxpRfBD7TNqTQIlTSYg5oG1UZrhcR42Q5NU0Xq chfmawpqCGjwyhdSfwbrqMC8Rm7IZGWhHVZT87OeaBIf+iKdVIVsQ+Rcb/RW8ZnwHJgv uuWf8bD3zPrLk1fOXqH5PqnFoTXHSzUIcGET0= Received: by 10.150.161.3 with SMTP id j3mr619886ybe.5.1271771202997; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:46:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.187.210 with SMTP id cx18ls7214200ibb.0.p; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.49.14 with SMTP id b14mr2643829agk.14.1271771201371; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.49.14 with SMTP id b14mr2643828agk.14.1271771201335; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 19si694696ywh.4.2010.04.20.06.46.40; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 70762 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Apr 2010 13:46:40 -0000 Message-ID: <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: opR37okVM1mqgHCE8gi.rUDcPHsJ5NcMcMyxR9AZDpfUqon 5lnY5oCdLMVWhcDamc9_LXmWcdQSZXCc.O_rq_shn48oXd.CER36wLlt3ZVq tyKxKxUG_iEJDxl.thtOCDzALFVYD5kFAlPWjOQYmBlkhQu55DOhPm5AtPXj 1NqCgC0cUAhZfAzKJfuNdhL0teq6uD5W1hgbqpXnJS3tljBwq_RwnkMviQJj yFgotDvs6H2YJlrcw4qT21pHv8msS1zrb5L3FkvZNz_PUq5tFKFdBzjkO4Q7 BjXWvzG9x8jevvfwpAdUScdxJWCG5wMxaYWr8XhlD7vPegJ4pcO4qcmI- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:46:39 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:46:39 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On nth thought, I am not so sure that plural 'ro' is such a problem after a= ll. To be sure, if we say 'ro da broda' we get the wrong result if brodain= g is something that only inidividuals can do. But we rarely say that; most= universals are qualified (whether restricted or conditional) and the quali= fication simply weeds out the inappropriate things. 'ro da poi broda cu bro= de' deals only with things that broda and thus only with things we really = want to deal with, including -- if apt -- pluralities. And the same applie= s, by a different mechanism, to 'ro da ganai da broda gi da brode'. Did we= want to generalize only about individuals, we could stick in -- for these = rare occasions -- the appropriate filter. Of course, this requires some no= tion of what applies to individuals (or groups of any selected size only) a= nd that is open to some debate. The example was of friends and it might be= argued that "is a friend of" can take pluralities in both slots.=20 But it can equally well be argued that it is individual in both slots and = that the group possibilities is a summing of the individuals (a notion whic= h would surely have some place in any developed theory of plurality, the fl= ip side of "participation", say). That all needs to be spelled out in the = strict definition in Lojban, of course. But, once it is done, I think that= virtually all the problems with taking 'ro' as plural diminish to irreleva= nce. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.