From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCPirjeBBoEFLQCxw@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 20 12:48:59 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4JRG-0000MV-1h; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:59 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf5295227gyd.16 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sTst3lW8sBwNzV9pCaEMQNeEUJKPQ/962HUQJTROEfI=; b=NnWD3kXOcW4n/mwcII6hnSc0e7zNuAbFY0VlLwYynvJH2Ru4HzIT0S+p/HXgYNVimP Hzvy0apIUufwGh0JUbmxzT55yaUdCWKJ7SiszVR+J16Ld+vMcutHzwrvSekcZO/MyAmI HNcxImRI5BaD4fXTNVqOP5B6vZBZ1sl2Ka4Hs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Yp8QnR8s1cYn66hxJZ8nxV59/4vcDnIWO0hu47BZtImQ/h1Pl9Zkx3qw8DoKn6XEhy NsRTPJqtwNKjMU92EvWqhP/jzD6IzTzQtrB3XjgfMcT4zMJqSMlcPzCZIT0BxSA63zDC XnwqIeBXWFfqO+jJrfcdYEnrkYAmwmQjo/NT0= Received: by 10.150.241.5 with SMTP id o5mr704621ybh.74.1271792911918; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.242.38 with SMTP id p38ls13105575ybh.6.p; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.18.5 with SMTP id v5mr5239749ybi.4.1271792910959; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.18.5 with SMTP id v5mr5239747ybi.4.1271792910931; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 19si527083yxe.7.2010.04.20.12.48.29; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 58498 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Apr 2010 19:48:29 -0000 Message-ID: <329209.57012.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: XjV19gEVM1k0m5jVj8ddDYUVPe2PHJvbJ_Vi5K.d14h7Hct bQo.f0dQa0N0lU7D9edxect5B4olZBMuNJ1Zty9.63aAdmOQGZohMseHUdgT 5u7fzp3ECxNznlwZ8i6jCJjoAh0t0_MQimd6.pK61xe8RuwsertlGRj7DPdU 41SYpwFzQiyRQ2CgX_pwuTjrl_vw1aQZCKDoxxDGENfq5hvh7.Dbp7LFY0Wo SVWPy87e.9oArhI3L90EMSizVwQVt_dgbpkezdS1URExrrxRMcHgWPwnZ2m4 n7_5b5ibKgoMS0bUv23oa1GAjTS7v_UkP85fLW2pU5JNYld9.TQ_c9rbpYpJ o0bfvc_MZxpHR3FzD98Nw17iEYw9r__gOM5Op Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:29 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:48:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In addition, I note that the problem of 'ro lo broda cu brode' bringing u= p a number of pluralities among lo broda which don't brode may result from = a misinterpretation of 'ro lo broda' which ranges not over everything amon= g lo broda but only those among them that broda. Thus, if 'broda' is, for = example a predicate that applies directly only to individuals, then only in= dividuals will be sorted out, not various other pluralities. And conversel= y. Every word, as the saying goes, has its own logic and, presumably, thi= s fact will be appropriately recorded in the logic of each. ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 8:46:39 AM Subject: [lojban] About plural 'ro' On nth thought, I am not so sure that plural 'ro' is such a problem after a= ll. To be sure, if we say 'ro da broda' we get the wrong result if brodain= g is something that only individuals can do. But we rarely say that; most = universals are qualified (whether restricted or conditional) and the qualif= ication simply weeds out the inappropriate things. 'ro da poi broda cu brod= e' deals only with things that broda and thus only with things we really w= ant to deal with, including -- if apt -- pluralities. And the same applies= , by a different mechanism, to 'ro da ganai da broda gi da brode'. Did we = want to generalize only about individuals, we could stick in -- for these r= are occasions -- the appropriate filter. Of course, this requires some not= ion of what applies to individuals (or groups of any selected size only) an= d that is open to some debate. The example was of friends and it might be = argued that "is a friend of" can take pluralities in both slots.=20 But it can equally well be argued that it is individual in both slots and t= hat the group possibilities is a summing of the individuals (a notion which= would surely have some place in any developed theory of plurality, the fli= p side of "participation", say). That all needs to be spelled out in the s= trict definition in Lojban, of course. But, once it is done, I think that = virtually all the problems with taking 'ro' as plural diminish to irrelevan= ce. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.