From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCkyrjeBBoEVf_mow@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 20 15:05:50 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4LZh-0003Ky-L2; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:50 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf5609216gxk.4 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qfJz/WRixmv24LARf1psHc5R4VDyl/e9XGGfW8gfbko=; b=vcMawnheviH9qSJ90t2L3POuuES82Z98BW1Zmt+Hd/B5znHCQLcg3hh+fh0Bz+T6Zb LpwKjFyLw2K9grVRkIo18jNdAU2RN1Wi64fpYwURdjtDOZWhoVEEf9hgPmFRw1aIE+Bi JhJX2xS5gYtwUYghESfloiFS4p7dQyDyBfnFU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ViYfS2YXNwkslO7NHo9OIXD/xTZDMPCyIcizVx6qeQjCGYCk32RzhPzZ5bjceIfRCQ uK36c7BPi8fsVW5IZEFrof9W3u2jodvFnTw/AyGd92IAMDzMNiDpMzq8sY5cdfY7jd4q letDzpdV/DbT33A1aTI6DeB7xiUfXXWzJvaPE= Received: by 10.151.1.1 with SMTP id d1mr720661ybi.84.1271801124022; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.145.21 with SMTP id x21ls16216128ann.3.p; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.197.17 with SMTP id z17mr5379149anp.6.1271801123386; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.197.17 with SMTP id z17mr5379148anp.6.1271801123361; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id g29si10415460anj.4.2010.04.20.15.05.21; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 16493 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Apr 2010 22:05:18 -0000 Message-ID: <243775.3002.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 3UFgfmwVM1nmnpY_49JHgcGMH0a6bLmWkSFze4rACJ4nfIA K9tgjJgGW_u6zag1zurFviG_pHVl8UJoiXTK5Eb_9ZRAS2W4aoQ5HFb1h_17 zwum87DRJP74ATYpMrvvKTZMy8u5w7fVuNzwBJ8wsM8DGV.ERO1nL6x87qvZ 5g62IwuColSspsY6kGmZPbJWVMDeRxqsOGFDCgZGhe.Ax23iavozOyilsrHB tNnLx3UVRzGkh2kU0f04FXknLSV8yC11Sj9vxmeDbf.4r9FOw2AQywtPrPa9 M0_fQwKceSQI6UGVjSEu4.Ob1eRYdMmHjCeWVCon6.aZX9azbLPtsNk3cbUI 0LHTe0oy4TP6rBcAIt9qHg93HySET3rY2qLFI Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:08 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <329209.57012.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:05:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The point is, of course, that 'ro' is plural, but filtered, by the very nat= ure of the expression. To be sure, if we assign the members of lo broda to= some 'ke'a' so that the method of their selection is lost, we may make a m= istake and get the wrong results -- which is probably a good reason for not= doing that or being very careful what you say after doing it. The point is that 'lo broda' is designative not purely denotative, that is,= it refers to a number of things, but only insofar as they broda (unlike 'k= e'a', apparently, or even 'le broda'), so the designative aspect comes in a= nd the quantifier can take out only what is there. Of course, if what is t= here can be plural, then it takes out all the plurals, but if it is individ= ual, then it takes out only the individuals: All those who carried the pia= no were rewarded, subset of them (there are probably better cases but I can= 't think of any now). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 2:58:17 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:48 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > In addition, I note that the problem of 'ro lo broda cu brode' bringing= up a number of pluralities among lo broda which don't brode may result fro= m a misinterpretation of 'ro lo broda' which ranges not over everything am= ong lo broda but only those among them that broda. Why would you want that? Surely the simple rule is that in "ro " a universal plural quantifier ranges over everything among the referents of the sumti, not about a selection that depends on the particular details of how the sumti was constructed. > Thus, if 'broda' is, for example a predicate that applies directly only t= o individuals, then only individuals will be sorted out, not various other = pluralities. And conversely. Every word, as the saying goes, has its own= logic and, presumably, this fact will be appropriately recorded in the log= ic of each. The logic of "broda" will surely be relevant in identifying the referents of "lo broda", but why should it be relevant in determining whether "ro" is singular or plural? What happens if an assignable variable is assigned the referents of "lo broda", does it thereafter always carry with it the method by which its referents were collected? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.