From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCw77jeBBoEVNWnCQ@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 20 16:25:01 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4MoJ-0008Ut-26; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:25:01 -0700 Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20sf1768435vws.16 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uF5e0OkZZF5NTAPRK2Fk9x7GJa/oFFUdKOJ55REZz3Q=; b=rdnEf9FXy6NlcXOk0FgvCcH1GlJLJx7ZVCptD8iMY61cnER7WPnjpFRFapVsB29KNP 1/Oc+wvaP4oVywFnkf/e2/S0q8mxgNMI7G70Y1BCJJSXec7/+wwC/NLFqwWt7OfaQjHF j4cTgA8WMRfO1bIKFrOa5tGstNIJjzwxV6+ek= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Vi8Zti/kyWZma+tGZgR7O5Z6gO9U5Bhi0X3gXeBtQtP5b7eEoRmMfFRW8N4EY+O/aH bCQQPfHaVLkwcA+EpeSDrrojFPdU4S9PkwBhmB5VDzx8tu3z5WVTTLZFF0y2+ALdr8XK 9cQcR66nD7pVEKLC5niy71ssI9euNmpsi0LqA= Received: by 10.220.89.89 with SMTP id d25mr567357vcm.36.1271805872175; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.47.17 with SMTP id l17ls16598360vcf.5.p; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.167.16 with SMTP id o16mr1635386vcy.19.1271805870973; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.167.16 with SMTP id o16mr1635385vcy.19.1271805870950; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.221.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id l27si3402771vcr.6.2010.04.20.16.24.29; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.171; Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1so7249143qyk.15 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <243775.3002.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <329209.57012.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <243775.3002.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:24:28 -0300 Received: by 10.229.191.76 with SMTP id dl12mr541156qcb.97.1271805868119; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 7:05 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > The point is, of course, that 'ro' is plural, but filtered, by the very n= ature of the expression. =A0To be sure, if we assign the members of lo brod= a to some 'ke'a' so that the method of their selection is lost, we may make= a mistake and get the wrong results -- which is probably a good reason for= not doing that or being very careful what you say after doing it. Let's only consider the cases where we don't make mistakes, for simplicity. Let's say that John, Paul and Mary, my three friends, carry a piano. Let's say that I assign "ko'a goi la djan jo'u la pol jo'u la meris" (no mention of any carrying or any friendships in this assignment, just a list of three people, that I assign as the referents of the plural variable "ko'a"). We also make this second assignment "ko'e goi lo ci pendo be mi" (I assign the same three referents to "ko'e", by a different method.) And finally "ko'i goi lo ci bevri be lo vi pipno" (again the same three people are assigned, this time to "ko'i", by a third method). Can I say that "ko'a du ko'e ko'i"? I think I can, because all that matters for "du" is whether "ko'a", "ko'e"and "ko'i" have the same referents, not the method by which they acquired those referents. Are these three the same or different claims: ro ko'a cu ponse pa karce ro ko'e cu ponse pa karce ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce ? For me, they all say exactly the same thing. (What exactly they say will depend on whether "ro" is singular or plural. I think it's singular. But whatever "ro" is, surely all three statements must be equivalent, right?) If ko'a/ko'e/ko'i are not just ordinary plural variables with referents and nothing else, does Lojban have any ordinary variables at all that have referents and nothing else? > The point is that 'lo broda' is designative not purely denotative, that i= s, it refers to a number of things, but only insofar as they broda (unlike = 'ke'a', apparently, or even 'le broda'), so the designative aspect comes in= and the quantifier can take out only what is there. =A0Of course, if what = is there can be plural, then it takes out all the plurals, but if it is ind= ividual, then it takes out only the individuals: =A0All those who carried t= he piano were rewarded, subset of them (there are probably better cases but= I can't think of any now). The referents of a plural variable are always only individuals. None of the referents is ever plural. It is the variable that is plural, not its referents. "What is there" in a plural variable are always individuals, not "plurals". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.