From lojban+bncCJbznvHdFRDgq7neBBoE2Xk6eA@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 20 18:33:47 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4Oow-0000si-Le; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:47 -0700 Received: by gwj18 with SMTP id 18sf272089gwj.16 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=MJ9cA7A0HwcdECnOjZXEa1Cqk49CZDUoW8W9EDXewIY=; b=ZRJ1H2BjDioJIk/cCMT4HkY60+G9NNNNLRH8Y542457WP6K9d1QqlyTYBwOizxHUQt mvYRzdbLglzbkcVmW3xpMKMOmoj3DocKJ5XJy/Sbchpk5eidP/l6PJ2bn39AWt/DP5AM ABXT/pGzf4zy6raeK7oIQdN4mNEYCvdNzcyyg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=X6eBbnliQGn0xia+vv38GaV5gVnAG5BbrrNCx/SkvY2CjkfgRy+WJpTj5cAo/LW+x7 7K3WhDl4XOUHsO8Xl41+v70TlFgZgIuouBHmAlrX4kkneOeaN67Z46afze6Q3p7z3/ce gUENDypJGj1wB6vVkuU/kDla+tHKM/PvaZdsI= Received: by 10.101.26.33 with SMTP id d33mr621762anj.33.1271813600858; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.170.19 with SMTP id x19ls16590309ano.0.p; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.189.38 with SMTP id r38mr5546955anp.1.1271813600310; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.189.38 with SMTP id r38mr5546953anp.1.1271813600231; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f41.google.com (mail-gw0-f41.google.com [74.125.83.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id g29si10680713anj.4.2010.04.20.18.33.19; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.41; Received: by gwj15 with SMTP id 15so927041gwj.28 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.91.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <329209.57012.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <243775.3002.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:33:15 -0400 Received: by 10.101.106.32 with SMTP id i32mr17598613anm.249.1271813595847; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' From: MorphemeAddict To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5bdad9a464a0484b52d73 --001636c5bdad9a464a0484b52d73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The three ko'V were assigned the same referents A, B, and C, so yes, they'r= e all the same. stevo On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >ro ko'a cu ponse pa karce > > ro ko'e cu ponse pa karce > > ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce > > > Would these all really be the same? > > ro gerku cu ponse pa rebla > ro mlatu cu ponse pa rebla > ro ractu cu ponse pa rebla > > But I would certainly not say that {lo go'i du lo go'e lo go'u}. Would > you? > > 2010/4/20 Jorge Llamb=EDas > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 7:05 PM, John E Clifford >> wrote: >> > The point is, of course, that 'ro' is plural, but filtered, by the ver= y >> nature of the expression. To be sure, if we assign the members of lo br= oda >> to some 'ke'a' so that the method of their selection is lost, we may mak= e a >> mistake and get the wrong results -- which is probably a good reason for= not >> doing that or being very careful what you say after doing it. >> >> Let's only consider the cases where we don't make mistakes, for >> simplicity. >> >> Let's say that John, Paul and Mary, my three friends, carry a piano. >> >> Let's say that I assign "ko'a goi la djan jo'u la pol jo'u la meris" >> (no mention of any carrying or any friendships in this assignment, >> just a list of three people, that I assign as the referents of the >> plural variable "ko'a"). >> >> We also make this second assignment "ko'e goi lo ci pendo be mi" (I >> assign the same three referents to "ko'e", by a different method.) >> >> And finally "ko'i goi lo ci bevri be lo vi pipno" (again the same >> three people are assigned, this time to "ko'i", by a third method). >> >> Can I say that "ko'a du ko'e ko'i"? I think I can, because all that >> matters for "du" is whether "ko'a", "ko'e"and "ko'i" have the same >> referents, not the method by which they acquired those referents. >> >> Are these three the same or different claims: >> >> ro ko'a cu ponse pa karce >> >> ro ko'e cu ponse pa karce >> >> ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce >> >> ? >> >> For me, they all say exactly the same thing. (What exactly they say >> will depend on whether "ro" is singular or plural. I think it's >> singular. But whatever "ro" is, surely all three statements must be >> equivalent, right?) >> >> If ko'a/ko'e/ko'i are not just ordinary plural variables with >> referents and nothing else, does Lojban have any ordinary variables at >> all that have referents and nothing else? >> >> > The point is that 'lo broda' is designative not purely denotative, tha= t >> is, it refers to a number of things, but only insofar as they broda (unl= ike >> 'ke'a', apparently, or even 'le broda'), so the designative aspect comes= in >> and the quantifier can take out only what is there. Of course, if what = is >> there can be plural, then it takes out all the plurals, but if it is >> individual, then it takes out only the individuals: All those who carri= ed >> the piano were rewarded, subset of them (there are probably better cases= but >> I can't think of any now). >> >> The referents of a plural variable are always only individuals. None >> of the referents is ever plural. It is the variable that is plural, >> not its referents. "What is there" in a plural variable are always >> individuals, not "plurals". >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5bdad9a464a0484b52d73 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The three ko'V were assigned the same referents A, B, and C, so ye= s, they're all the same.
=A0
stevo

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
>r= o ko'a cu ponse pa karce=20

=A0 =A0 ro ko'e cu ponse p= a karce

=A0 =A0 ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce=20


Would these all really be the same?

ro gerku cu ponse pa rebla
ro mlatu cu ponse pa rebla
ro ractu cu ponse pa rebla

But I would certainly not say that {lo go'i du lo go'e lo go&#= 39;u}. =A0Would you?

2010/4/20 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>=20

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 7:05 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote= :
> The point is, of course, that 'ro' is plural, but filtere= d, by the very nature of the expression. =A0To be sure, if we assign the me= mbers of lo broda to some 'ke'a' so that the method of their se= lection is lost, we may make a mistake and get the wrong results -- which i= s probably a good reason for not doing that or being very careful what you = say after doing it.

Let's only consider the cases where we don't make mistake= s, for simplicity.

Let's say that John, Paul and Mary, my three = friends, carry a piano.

Let's say that I assign "ko'a g= oi la djan jo'u la pol jo'u la meris"
(no mention of any carrying or any friendships in this assignment,
just = a list of three people, that I assign as the referents of the
plural var= iable "ko'a").

We also make this second assignment &qu= ot;ko'e goi lo ci pendo be mi" (I
assign the same three referents to "ko'e", by a different met= hod.)

And finally "ko'i goi lo ci bevri be lo vi pipno"= ; (again the same
three people are assigned, this time to "ko'i= ", by a third method).

Can I say that "ko'a du ko'e ko'i"? I think I can= , because all that
matters for "du" is whether "ko'a&= quot;, "ko'e"and "ko'i" have the same
refere= nts, not the method by which they acquired those referents.

Are these three the same or different claims:

=A0 =A0 ro ko'a cu ponse pa karce

=A0 =A0 ro ko&#= 39;e cu ponse pa karce

=A0 =A0 ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce

= ?

For me, they all say exactly the same thing. (What exactly they sa= y
will depend on whether "ro" is singular or plural. I think i= t's
singular. But whatever "ro" is, surely all three statements must = be
equivalent, right?)

If ko'a/ko'e/ko'i are not just= ordinary plural variables with
referents and nothing else, does Lojban = have any ordinary variables at
all that have referents and nothing else?

> The point is that 'lo broda' is designative not purel= y denotative, that is, it refers to a number of things, but only insofar as= they broda (unlike 'ke'a', apparently, or even 'le broda&#= 39;), so the designative aspect comes in and the quantifier can take out on= ly what is there. =A0Of course, if what is there can be plural, then it tak= es out all the plurals, but if it is individual, then it takes out only the= individuals: =A0All those who carried the piano were rewarded, subset of t= hem (there are probably better cases but I can't think of any now).

The referents of a plural variable are always only individuals. N= one
of the referents is ever plural. It is the variable that is plural,<= br>not its referents. "What is there" in a plural variable are al= ways
individuals, not "plurals".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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