From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDdwrneBBoEf4oLiw@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 20 19:22:51 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f144.google.com ([209.85.210.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4PaN-00044G-4D; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:50 -0700 Received: by yxe8 with SMTP id 8sf5417414yxe.25 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=67iPQP0bM7zlZKWPMHSEMusTMnWvWykYBSPvzftXS7s=; b=ZZrwxyvEoGnE5eWQ/jcALouVN2KaqvrmaRxC+nAqI8Whhfa1Uf3lJzLWStrSh1L29w vn0g3JT2BNSQBwwmd2tWn2ZbZemu7LSdr94GlYBWUFsL31QknrzrePPr1HNNULhCHXSa 95KqfX1pdXLkBUtW/+7dZ8ZvJhwn1KrATCDxU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Cd6J9tuxmIOM4QLZ18vuJXhJFy9W0bsJYTgzs4ZKowPMCyjVfO2HMkuzNQd7FX/uGt g78ESnStA/UUcoQj+U0oDcJRp910P/72mxcPs20pK4pyPXM8GwmGjb+CwvUVdeM2+78D 8IMhUMhzlI7p4d6D7tKF3KWFv0j3D0/S+/kD4= Received: by 10.150.247.2 with SMTP id u2mr737673ybh.68.1271816541396; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.247.33 with SMTP id u33ls13939665ybh.4.p; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.66.20 with SMTP id o20mr5624805yba.27.1271816540752; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.66.20 with SMTP id o20mr5624804yba.27.1271816540723; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 24si540805yxe.1.2010.04.20.19.22.19; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 50543 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Apr 2010 02:22:19 -0000 Message-ID: <102923.48908.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: B2RBc3YVM1maQPN1W._YFoKnaYWWwGW6gPF5XLnzZjXxBcE YTlSL9VPaW4DZQ7cMFZxpp4e8697L9_i6WI4xrHD13H.Ji9v5CDF_Cz7ixS0 NZ.gCjDcSe5VBsmRavGzq92E_fhrWzIJGQFPwIN71EdpgmJqvZWCRZ_.d5Ke V5_sHTD2yo7ffMnBSxBcYyaY.La7srUWIPpIGnZyB30coC_H3BgHYA_m1Zfe OmU8Soj_4wkHwIXSB_bnGUkosJ5w9us3JuaNNjJFeML6PW.fjUZq.dLbNDUp BD7Gdd4CgQC8EzVcy34mkFEMo6ZFm3s_XG8kaEP0icTrVyfH_QEghr23o2FJ rpYy_GcZG8x1mzTApNjKuglmzgcSMiNDccs6n Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:18 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <329209.57012.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <243775.3002.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:22:18 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, as I said, if you use 'ko'a' then you have at best a purely denotativ= e expression and you are stuck with what you get out. Which means, of cour= se, be careful what you do with those expressions. If you work with 'ko'a= ' and quantify, then you do indeed get all the pluralities and no filter. = If you work with designative expressions you get the filter. All three of y= our sentences are apparently equivalent and apparently all false.This is al= l about language, after all, not about reality. The referents of plural variables are of course individuals, but may be sev= eral of them at once -- that is the problem. Similarly some predicates can= take only inidivudals as arguemtns, others can take several individuals as= once as arguments (I'm skipping over the L-set reading with some difficult= y here). When the filter works, it filters out the inappropriate cases, wh= ere one variable has an inappropriate number of referents. t also filters = out appropriate numbers where the predicate doesn't apply: "carried the pia= no" allows plural referents for its subject, but not all the the subplurali= ties may be also true subjects of the predicate and so "all who carried the= piano" will not cover them, though it may cover others of the same size o= r smaller. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 6:24:28 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 7:05 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > The point is, of course, that 'ro' is plural, but filtered, by the very n= ature of the expression. To be sure, if we assign the members of lo broda = to some 'ke'a' so that the method of their selection is lost, we may make a= mistake and get the wrong results -- which is probably a good reason for n= ot doing that or being very careful what you say after doing it. Let's only consider the cases where we don't make mistakes, for simplicity. Let's say that John, Paul and Mary, my three friends, carry a piano. Let's say that I assign "ko'a goi la djan jo'u la pol jo'u la meris" (no mention of any carrying or any friendships in this assignment, just a list of three people, that I assign as the referents of the plural variable "ko'a"). We also make this second assignment "ko'e goi lo ci pendo be mi" (I assign the same three referents to "ko'e", by a different method.) And finally "ko'i goi lo ci bevri be lo vi pipno" (again the same three people are assigned, this time to "ko'i", by a third method). Can I say that "ko'a du ko'e ko'i"? I think I can, because all that matters for "du" is whether "ko'a", "ko'e"and "ko'i" have the same referents, not the method by which they acquired those referents. Are these three the same or different claims: ro ko'a cu ponse pa karce ro ko'e cu ponse pa karce ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce ? For me, they all say exactly the same thing. (What exactly they say will depend on whether "ro" is singular or plural. I think it's singular. But whatever "ro" is, surely all three statements must be equivalent, right?) If ko'a/ko'e/ko'i are not just ordinary plural variables with referents and nothing else, does Lojban have any ordinary variables at all that have referents and nothing else? > The point is that 'lo broda' is designative not purely denotative, that i= s, it refers to a number of things, but only insofar as they broda (unlike = 'ke'a', apparently, or even 'le broda'), so the designative aspect comes in= and the quantifier can take out only what is there. Of course, if what is= there can be plural, then it takes out all the plurals, but if it is indiv= idual, then it takes out only the individuals: All those who carried the p= iano were rewarded, subset of them (there are probably better cases but I c= an't think of any now). The referents of a plural variable are always only individuals. None of the referents is ever plural. It is the variable that is plural, not its referents. "What is there" in a plural variable are always individuals, not "plurals". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.