From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDMybneBBoEIqa2bw@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 20 19:37:26 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f187.google.com ([209.85.217.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4PoX-00059K-RA; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:37:26 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf4634833gxk.11 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:37:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VmabiiIjbo3O9XjO+Wu3diS3lMEMgDtCevn3F9L8lRA=; b=6xsLa6jHFK2hsvdQjoLtVes4Fz3DgjLaSmzJrjR2YqLEm25pifyoNncGn9Sxo/7H7h MJURAlq4qNFijmdaJ/s5E4e1lM5qUJo5zn2pv3SozRWvjXPv6y0XHt6kZCEdRW7mxz84 kBpPdeG+uw1IS8r1RIo7MxmZHfV3vIZGYBIyI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=y4qbJGB0qUdPGW0tirSjkqO/FktRGI4BzdLTEKIMn9NbxGOQByr3kw+1BZ/m5stgGz xA5H9/SNQtQizOrNgZ//balXOhMgguK4wrvMHkxAakjkII7CGWmtv1cmpSOY+tuJMr4R VgozP/r4FOykqiusSFK7/VAgL5jO0zcQQZ4gA= Received: by 10.150.172.42 with SMTP id u42mr734936ybe.60.1271817420377; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.234.22 with SMTP id g22ls13948560ybh.7.p; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.99.131 with SMTP id u3mr985702qan.1.1271817418841; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.99.131 with SMTP id u3mr985701qan.1.1271817418796; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 19si1328866qyk.9.2010.04.20.19.36.57; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.41; Received: by vws4 with SMTP id 4so508784vws.28 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:36:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.167.140 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:36:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <749715.13526.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <329209.57012.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <243775.3002.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749715.13526.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:36:57 -0400 Received: by 10.220.63.4 with SMTP id z4mr4055800vch.219.1271817417531; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e384e8464210e0484b61102 --e0cb4e384e8464210e0484b61102 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought that that's what {du} meant. {ko'a du ko'e ko'i} means that ko'a= , ko'e and ko'i all reference the same thing does it not? I don't mean that they are all different things, that would be {mintu}. Things that are {du} to each other refer to the same actual thing right? And all dogs, all cats= , and all rabbits certainly aren't the same things. On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:24 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > I don't think anyone is claiming they are the same. What makes you think > someone is? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Luke Bergen > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Tue, April 20, 2010 8:20:37 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' > > >ro ko'a cu ponse pa karce > > ro ko'e cu ponse pa karce > > ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce > > > Would these all really be the same? > > ro gerku cu ponse pa rebla > ro mlatu cu ponse pa rebla > ro ractu cu ponse pa rebla > > But I would certainly not say that {lo go'i du lo go'e lo go'u}. Would > you? > > 2010/4/20 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 7:05 PM, John E Clifford >> wrote: >> > The point is, of course, that 'ro' is plural, but filtered, by the ver= y >> nature of the expression. To be sure, if we assign the members of lo br= oda >> to some 'ke'a' so that the method of their selection is lost, we may mak= e a >> mistake and get the wrong results -- which is probably a good reason for= not >> doing that or being very careful what you say after doing it. >> >> Let's only consider the cases where we don't make mistakes, for >> simplicity. >> >> Let's say that John, Paul and Mary, my three friends, carry a piano. >> >> Let's say that I assign "ko'a goi la djan jo'u la pol jo'u la meris" >> (no mention of any carrying or any friendships in this assignment, >> just a list of three people, that I assign as the referents of the >> plural variable "ko'a"). >> >> We also make this second assignment "ko'e goi lo ci pendo be mi" (I >> assign the same three referents to "ko'e", by a different method.) >> >> And finally "ko'i goi lo ci bevri be lo vi pipno" (again the same >> three people are assigned, this time to "ko'i", by a third method). >> >> Can I say that "ko'a du ko'e ko'i"? I think I can, because all that >> matters for "du" is whether "ko'a", "ko'e"and "ko'i" have the same >> referents, not the method by which they acquired those referents. >> >> Are these three the same or different claims: >> >> ro ko'a cu ponse pa karce >> >> ro ko'e cu ponse pa karce >> >> ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce >> >> ? >> >> For me, they all say exactly the same thing. (What exactly they say >> will depend on whether "ro" is singular or plural. I think it's >> singular. But whatever "ro" is, surely all three statements must be >> equivalent, right?) >> >> If ko'a/ko'e/ko'i are not just ordinary plural variables with >> referents and nothing else, does Lojban have any ordinary variables at >> all that have referents and nothing else? >> >> > The point is that 'lo broda' is designative not purely denotative, tha= t >> is, it refers to a number of things, but only insofar as they broda (unl= ike >> 'ke'a', apparently, or even 'le broda'), so the designative aspect comes= in >> and the quantifier can take out only what is there. Of course, if what = is >> there can be plural, then it takes out all the plurals, but if it is >> individual, then it takes out only the individuals: All those who carri= ed >> the piano were rewarded, subset of them (there are probably better cases= but >> I can't think of any now). >> >> The referents of a plural variable are always only individuals. None >> of the referents is ever plural. It is the variable that is plural, >> not its referents. "What is there" in a plural variable are always >> individuals, not "plurals". >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --e0cb4e384e8464210e0484b61102 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought that that's what {du} meant. =A0{ko'a du ko'e ko'= i} means that ko'a, ko'e and ko'i all reference the same thing = does it not? =A0I don't mean that they are all different things, that w= ould be {mintu}. =A0Things that are {du} to each other refer to the same ac= tual thing right? =A0And all dogs, all cats, and all rabbits certainly aren= 't the same things.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:24 PM, John E Cli= fford <kali9pu= tra@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't think anyone is claiming they are the same.=A0 Wh= at makes you think someone is?

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 8:20:37 P= M

Subject: Re: [lojban] Ab= out plural 'ro'
<= br> >ro ko'a cu ponse pa = karce

=A0 =A0 ro ko'e cu ponse pa karce

=A0 =A0 ro ko'i = cu ponse pa karce


Would these all really = be the same?

ro gerku cu ponse pa rebla
ro mlatu cu ponse pa rebla
ro ractu cu ponse pa = rebla

But I would certainly not say that {lo go&#= 39;i du lo go'e lo go'u}. =A0Would you?

2010/4/20 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 7:05 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.= com> wrote:
> The point is, of course, that 'ro' is plural, but filtered, by= the very nature of the expression. =A0To be sure, if we assign the members= of lo broda to some 'ke'a' so that the method of their selecti= on is lost, we may make a mistake and get the wrong results -- which is pro= bably a good reason for not doing that or being very careful what you say a= fter doing it.

Let's only consider the cases where we don't make mistakes, f= or simplicity.

Let's say that John, Paul and Mary, my three friends, carry a piano.
Let's say that I assign "ko'a goi la djan jo'u la pol jo&#= 39;u la meris"
(no mention of any carrying or any friendships in this assignment,
just a list of three people, that I assign as the referents of the
plural variable "ko'a").

We also make this second assignment "ko'e goi lo ci pendo be mi&qu= ot; (I
assign the same three referents to "ko'e", by a different met= hod.)

And finally "ko'i goi lo ci bevri be lo vi pipno" (again the = same
three people are assigned, this time to "ko'i", by a third me= thod).

Can I say that "ko'a du ko'e ko'i"? I think I can, be= cause all that
matters for "du" is whether "ko'a", "ko'e&= quot;and "ko'i" have the same
referents, not the method by which they acquired those referents.

Are these three the same or different claims:

=A0 =A0 ro ko'a cu ponse pa karce

=A0 =A0 ro ko'e cu ponse pa karce

=A0 =A0 ro ko'i cu ponse pa karce

?

For me, they all say exactly the same thing. (What exactly they say
will depend on whether "ro" is singular or plural. I think it'= ;s
singular. But whatever "ro" is, surely all three statements must = be
equivalent, right?)

If ko'a/ko'e/ko'i are not just ordinary plural variables with referents and nothing else, does Lojban have any ordinary variables at
all that have referents and nothing else?

> The point is that 'lo broda' is designative not purely denotat= ive, that is, it refers to a number of things, but only insofar as they bro= da (unlike 'ke'a', apparently, or even 'le broda'), so = the designative aspect comes in and the quantifier can take out only what i= s there. =A0Of course, if what is there can be plural, then it takes out al= l the plurals, but if it is individual, then it takes out only the individu= als: =A0All those who carried the piano were rewarded, subset of them (ther= e are probably better cases but I can't think of any now).

The referents of a plural variable are always only individuals. None<= br> of the referents is ever plural. It is the variable that is plural,
not its referents. "What is there" in a plural variable are alway= s
individuals, not "plurals".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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