From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCzz7neBBoE8N6yvw@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 20 19:49:50 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4Q0X-0005qZ-BE; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:49 -0700 Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20sf1832822vws.16 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DKFt8ZXtSxPis0+rGvJCvLAmIEkogcolnKCxCzTTGU8=; b=zbmUKPcGXR7BqB9+f2xMmSVtR5vQ6oWLeRSPfzNFR1AmcWkECiXmSZiv741rRyDFVz H9+FcsKXAyvoFtvjVEWLY1juJZIntre3gQW142Ee3oHy3UVwLKUSAsxUFr+kSSmKve+p 5pjewQGHmi8dyLTCxVqE6cHQYe6+OVkGPN3Ug= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jeGseXtEkJMtbfFwkQMtH+DsbKYYG5O2jAxbi2+hYOsuGrRfyO2094ocr4YB39tAmC 4pdOukVcAzpKJF2PmGGLsKJqu8divuTuWMMsHx2Vu1ARRo4fH3rNTPbYhpmWZSWq0my9 Tc5UUoRa6DeLgLl9iBHK2iB/VE2oKuD3Fs0rM= Received: by 10.220.129.11 with SMTP id m11mr206411vcs.24.1271818163557; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.22 with SMTP id n22ls17125788vck.3.p; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.160.69 with SMTP id m5mr1670587vcx.7.1271818162416; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.160.69 with SMTP id m5mr1670586vcx.7.1271818162374; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.221.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a10si4397070vci.4.2010.04.20.19.49.21; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.182; Received: by mail-qy0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 12so8157784qyk.21 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <102923.48908.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <329209.57012.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <243775.3002.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <102923.48908.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:49:20 -0300 Received: by 10.229.190.209 with SMTP id dj17mr2801575qcb.52.1271818160824; Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 11:22 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > Well, as I said, if you use 'ko'a' then you have at best a purely denotat= ive expression and you are stuck with what you get out. =A0Which means, of = course, be =A0careful what you do with those expressions. =A0If you work wi= th 'ko'a' and quantify, then you do indeed get all the pluralities and no f= ilter. =A0If you work with designative expressions you get the filter. All = three of your sentences are apparently equivalent and apparently all false.= This is all about language, after all, not about reality. So if I'm reading you correctly, you are saying that for you "ro ko'a cu brode" and "ro lo broda cu brode" do not necessarily mean the same even if "ko'a" and "lo broda" have the exact same referents? One can be true and the other false? Certainly not the way I understand how quantifiers work with sumti. For me "ro cu broda" is always "ro da zo'u ganai da me gi da broda", i.e. "for any x, if x is/are among the referents of , then x broda", and that for me should work whether ro/da end up being defined as singular quantifier/variable or as plural quantifier/variable. Alternatively, if you don't like the ganai ... gi ... expansion (I forget which one is the one you don't like) you can say that it's "ro da poi me zo'u da broda", i.e. "for any x among the referents of : x broda", for any . I'm not sure what you gain by treating different sumti differently. > The referents of plural variables are of course individuals, but may be s= everal of them at once -- that is the problem. =A0Similarly some predicates= can take only inidivudals as arguemtns, others can take several individual= s as once as arguments (I'm skipping over the L-set reading with some diffi= culty here). =A0When the filter works, it filters out the inappropriate cas= es, where one variable has an inappropriate number of referents. =A0t also = filters out appropriate numbers where the predicate doesn't apply: "carried= the piano" allows plural referents for its subject, but not all the the su= bpluralities may be also true subjects of the predicate and so "all who car= ried the piano" will not cover them, though it may cover others of the same= size =A0or smaller. So you don't have any general meaning for "ro cu broda" without knowing what the internals of are, right? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.