From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDO97veBBoEjzbHYw@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 21 06:21:58 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f155.google.com ([209.85.222.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4ZsE-0006qX-QB; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:58 -0700 Received: by pzk27 with SMTP id 27sf2884146pzk.2 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vl2Yq/UXQa3JuCOKMrcvPbO4H4qvOTctjXX9eLVv91o=; b=xyz5v1zoNLDQr8idZ0q8RbUwSe7uVw8UicJaeoXmMclC3Ct1wGvGg8WS9PHF8BjVf9 /PS6WaZ/k5AHPFBHdt4YobK68OvF9aHJpXhzMAjLPPbsHDNqyUNGWpmP9ipUKq5Addbm jy7BQpb3ItlexvqhOlpa7dCW1zTPwAC5ATi7o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Kb6sVcDofB4PYV0LZlgsZnAkw7jyk1p3K8Z+Slu5v8StIgGNMqeN8sPi0QWa2Lrcsh rDSW+zJt1R2pFKaXKYWlaH8hRsaloJmGNRjp7kQudeYstwv6h825V1PdnkbUjzS90DPw sfAr5ERgirx4h5cl77lQqOjRGuWc+HHvmSIr0= Received: by 10.115.101.12 with SMTP id d12mr819192wam.1.1271856078689; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.114.253.13 with SMTP id a13ls16570532wai.3.p; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.234.4 with SMTP id g4mr6026156anh.39.1271856077004; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.234.4 with SMTP id g4mr6026148anh.39.1271856076860; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.117]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 17si11634702anx.2.2010.04.21.06.21.15; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.117; Received: (qmail 51578 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Apr 2010 13:21:15 -0000 Message-ID: <75805.51342.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: bQtbqhUVM1k1A4.gaMgdLHVgsh2c17tbxkBrDNcS4Ii9lUQ AZCPq7ycAToFXuPeCHXEOREy8Wgp4oKGj0ahVc3wm7uS0XPsu97vJPEWjAX7 KjVx34r_nrkGdKo80_A_JOqsjpIIx8YFO7ZdzxdapS8IWeet4nLfU9FPEiKF XLnQ_AxiIEL2uMiMyI2OLnZ7s7fNAq41FBiyFkA7a5aHija966oqKm7..MQd 9Tm48S1Di6j1DsyeprIVVRI9PDfT.W_kz_dc8ZW4kjoQR8sm69RZqVOi7t9_ r3GhK02BG5x7YPJYo6N3fJ5SJXK2mS8AOAsWSJOX_fX8Za._BnRCNLAW8FLY kc2vHz3CXsw-- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:14 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <931037.70565.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <329209.57012.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <243775.3002.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <102923.48908.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:21:14 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I don't like the the 'ganai... gi ..' format since that would allow f= or empty sumti, which are undesirable (if not incomprehensible) for a varie= ty of reasons. And yes, there is no general rule for 'ro' nor can I= think of a reason to expect one. Sumti refer to things in a variety of wa= ys and quantifiers naturally take these differences into account. I we are= going to have plural quantification, then that has to be the fundamental f= orm and others derive from it. The most obvious way to deal with the probl= ems that appear to arise from this is to adapt the rules for quantifiers to= what is quantified over (given that we are now in fact quantifying over th= ings that no actual logic quantifies over and so we are winging it). If th= is gives undesirable results, then perhaps we need further rules about tran= sitivity, though these get increasingly hard to formulate. Alternatively, = we can do away with plural quantification. which leads to problems, given that terms have plural referents and instantiate bound variables, so= that, then, variables don't cover their instances. Of course, we can also = drop plural reference and go back to singularity and get plurality explicit= ly when needed by the distinction between, say, 'lo' and 'loi' (well, not p= lurality exactly, rather the interesting correlate of it, collectivity). Qu= antifiers continue to work differently depending on what the term applied t= o is -- 'ro lo broda' is presumably partitive, 'ro loi broda' multiplicativ= e, and so on. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 9:49:20 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 11:22 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > Well, as I said, if you use 'ko'a' then you have at best a purely denotat= ive expression and you are stuck with what you get out. Which means, of co= urse, be careful what you do with those expressions. If you work with 'ko= 'a' and quantify, then you do indeed get all the pluralities and no filter.= If you work with designative expressions you get the filter. All three of= your sentences are apparently equivalent and apparently all false.This is = all about language, after all, not about reality. So if I'm reading you correctly, you are saying that for you "ro ko'a cu brode" and "ro lo broda cu brode" do not necessarily mean the same even if "ko'a" and "lo broda" have the exact same referents? One can be true and the other false? Certainly not the way I understand how quantifiers work with sumti. For me "ro cu broda" is always "ro da zo'u ganai da me gi da broda", i.e. "for any x, if x is/are among the referents of , then x broda", and that for me should work whether ro/da end up being defined as singular quantifier/variable or as plural quantifier/variable. Alternatively, if you don't like the ganai ... gi ... expansion (I forget which one is the one you don't like) you can say that it's "ro da poi me zo'u da broda", i.e. "for any x among the referents of : x broda", for any . I'm not sure what you gain by treating different sumti differently. > The referents of plural variables are of course individuals, but may be s= everal of them at once -- that is the problem. Similarly some predicates c= an take only inidivudals as arguemtns, others can take several individuals = as once as arguments (I'm skipping over the L-set reading with some difficu= lty here). When the filter works, it filters out the inappropriate cases, = where one variable has an inappropriate number of referents. t also filter= s out appropriate numbers where the predicate doesn't apply: "carried the p= iano" allows plural referents for its subject, but not all the the subplura= lities may be also true subjects of the predicate and so "all who carried t= he piano" will not cover them, though it may cover others of the same size = or smaller. So you don't have any general meaning for "ro cu broda" without knowing what the internals of are, right? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.