From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCGmb7eBBoEHOw1CA@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 21 16:39:12 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4jVc-0003oZ-AY; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:39:12 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf6699680gyd.16 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:39:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9z87JC5Df4ctwrhfbGA0lO5QEvmPNJOKxmLClMBjyiM=; b=IpPXvHDN+18ULUkrrB1KWt5X6vHbXelPC/BDtPwvoDSr/qXKN1I+ARobVu2EQIaHzO gtmei9Ii3IyxT17dyATbtEnyQ9lYA03S++bWeKHYQHh9dUvir7vEje/GwUeuVOz10HWW YDE4w74kXmoD4lW2ilXRaUPS62u5C/J7npgbU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=TB8gSjItEJw5JfwO+5o/iBqdegCEbADEK2UWZ2nYKiJDzUCZJFqYNSOttVl44WhJlH kiblCaFkjDwlI3Gl4NlOe3/ramBmjKBB4ltJRUax/ML4zyuKDIvjvf7T+UnWch4LiLqu yNzOLx+UGgPYhPt+9/rWwgbRICuIgf7VnCYTc= Received: by 10.150.172.17 with SMTP id u17mr977823ybe.34.1271893126224; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:38:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.146.27 with SMTP id y27ls20463892ann.2.p; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.197.17 with SMTP id z17mr6632938anp.6.1271893125425; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.197.17 with SMTP id z17mr6632936anp.6.1271893125374; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c29si12507235anc.3.2010.04.21.16.38.44; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 47945 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Apr 2010 23:38:43 -0000 Message-ID: <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: BUtYmrwVM1m_PYx23AfqidJdXTkYZFx4.1g14NCski3EbJS cSgpCZ.uvKq73Zz2Qz_8ENM0MfIZO1Y3a612T7vXz8z6E03_JKQedJav9F_F M6ECvOG0k1e0AHdOqAsrNJJMyyAYQsQWYPBoBuhUmZE6iEY0PT7kcSS5AVcb JKr4OFz3czW061YATNZ8B3gXdBVIhyGPKvMOmFdlmLUeRBEU4r3O0Qml1dyq 8yFWR2n2mlxFmsbdjFhfOhIh9Eotl0gzDTrvN4UcCUEs0deEkRpNPQI7y8D3 4d8mgu3edxwe.MU3I5EfwMCZbZNAVojr3x7QQ9LbgBs5VCWTLwVuJfaKurIx k4Fuavn2pRXSdPt91MI.WqmRb_NffA20b6v2U Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:38:43 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <102923.48908.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <75805.51342.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <934390.40893.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <391970.26672.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:38:43 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 4:37:30 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:31 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > From: Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> Right, the corresponding inference when you have a singular quantifier >> 'Ax' and a plural term 'a' is: >> >> "AxFx, therefore if a is one, Fa" > > [[[Where did the "if a is one come from? It is not anywhere in the formu= la above. That's why it's the *corresponding* inference. The inference rule you gave was for singular quantifier to singular term, or for plural quantifier to plural term. It is obvious why you need to add the "if a is one" when going from singular quantifier to plural term, isn't it? [[[[It's a universal quantifier, it applies to all instances. Is Fa not an= instance? If not, how is "instance" defined? > And, of course, it won't help in the reverse case, even if it does here. = But it doesn't of course, because a its not one but plural ex hypothesi]]] What is the reverse case? Existential generalization? The corresponding rule would be: [[[[ No. And not just because there is no "a is one" involved, though that= , too. I meant, if A is a plural quantifier and a a singular term.]]]] "Fa, therefore if a is one, ExFx" If the reverse case was from plural quantifier to singular term, then neither rule need modification: "AxFx, therefore Fa" "Fa, therefore ExFx" both work with singular 'a' and plural 'Ax' or 'Ex'. [[[[If so, just what do "singular' and "plural" mean here. This, I know, is= Lojban, where no word can be trusted to mean what it ordinarily means, but= this seems a clear case even here.]]] > Suppose a piano (or something) ways a ton and a half. Then, "all the pe= ople who carried the whatever will be rewarded" is going to be either vacuo= usly false or vacuously true, even though the piano got carried (if we are = going by singulars) or either nobody gets a reward or everybody gets severa= l (if we go by plurals). Since both plural reference of at least the latte= r sort and plural quantification (which follows) seem > useful, some trick is needed. And one that can be reliably and consiste= ntly used,]]] ro lo prenu poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu =3D ro da poi me lo prenu poi bevri lo co'e zo'u da ba se cnemu "Each of (the people who carried the whatever) will be rewarded." "For each x, such that x is one of (the people who carried the whatever): x will be rewarded." (Reward for each participant in the carrying.) ro lo prenu ku poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu =3D ro da poi me lo prenu zi'e poi bevri lo co'e zo'u da ba se cecmu "Each of (the people) who carried the whatever will be rewarded." "For each x, such that x is one of (the people) and x carried the whatever: x will be rewarded." (Only Superman gets reward.) Neither of those two, however, involve plural quantification. Using "roro" as the plural quantifier: roro lo prenu poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu roro da poi me lo prenu poi bevri lo co'e zo'u da ba se cnemu "Any one or more of (the people who carried the whatever) will be rewarded." "For any X, such that X is one or more of (the people who carried the whatever): X will be rewarded." (Lots of rewards for anybody involved.) roro lo prenu ku poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu roro da poi me lo prenu zi'e poi bevri lo co'e zo'u da ba se cecmu "Any one or more of (the people) who carried the whatever will be rewarded." "For any X, such that X is one or more of (the people) and X carried the whatever: X will be rewarded." (Any teams that carried it gets reward.) [[[[Yes, there are any number of other sentences which can be worked up to = take care of various problems, but let's stick to the one at hand, since we= have no way of deciding which alternative to use as correct. In Lojban, ii= rc, it would be something like 'ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu' (I = admit I am trusting you for vocab here), where I leave the nature of 'ro' o= pen. Suppose there are five strongmen, no one or two of which can lift the= whatsis and any three of which can. And all the groups that can, do. And= the reward is a hundred bucks. How much do you have to pay out? The obvo= usly correct answer is $500. No interpretation of 'ro' presented gives tha= t answer (they range from $0 to $1600) I should add that the shift from "c= arries the whatsis" to "is a member of a bunch that carries the whatsis" se= ems particularly illegitimate, since we are trying to work up to questions = about what quantifiers mean applied to terms by figuring out what they mean in their natural habitat -- and of course, carrying a pianno is = very different from being in a group, even if the group is carrying a piano= . (And, as a terminological point, 'roro'; is obviously the singular quant= ifier, since it takes the plural and breaks it down again.)]]]] mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.