From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDUxb7eBBoE6IccKg@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 21 18:14:23 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f159.google.com ([209.85.211.159]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4kzi-0001sW-2I; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:14:22 -0700 Received: by ywh31 with SMTP id 31sf7408100ywh.3 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:14:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YtzN7FsesXfdDQ32AJLU/MYySTyw3eiH//CYoFuJIsE=; b=MH0ZtUOI2UhVzlcxErytv+bEYA7K+ZiTVeT1QGVjPTnHkq10b6ARrntpTsenmLYGUG d7OvgJsKNeEcrBkwL7833FCptGjFKwvLp7PkzDfUlXFPpuP69T4SC2XZFXnbQzboQiRI z/KMS/4FqiKuMBLLtmQuI8Wgb7O4R3ft3WC+s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DDJMeEUHQZwiTKGcKtisYc78koc6lKB/pWXa0BrJAA1+Cp7sx1PfAyYmog3T/9/vb/ 78pQNg4zguHqfjq8GNYtG6g5Pgh2cW9c0zKkzBVVwXgOI6teyQiveCFc6+sH5Ds82jPN r1R7ooEmT7z3LE9uqykKNwwJO66ZyXbYQ381U= Received: by 10.90.125.12 with SMTP id x12mr2709914agc.57.1271898836176; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.64.79 with SMTP id b57ls10601606wed.2.p; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.172.144 with SMTP id t16mr952347wel.25.1271898834733; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.172.144 with SMTP id t16mr952346wel.25.1271898834713; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.221.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n31si10805791wbc.0.2010.04.21.18.13.53; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.171; Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1so9135200qyk.15 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:13:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:13:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <75805.51342.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <934390.40893.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <391970.26672.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:13:52 -0300 Received: by 10.229.227.10 with SMTP id iy10mr5424712qcb.55.1271898832823; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:38 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > In Lojban, iirc, it would be something like 'ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu= ba se cnemu' (I admit I am trusting you for vocab here), where I leave the= nature of 'ro' open. >=A0Suppose there are five strongmen, no one or two of which can lift the w= hatsis and any three of which can. =A0And all the groups that can, do. =A0A= nd the reward is a hundred bucks. =A0How much do you have to pay out? (1) ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu fo lo rupnu be li 100 "Any one (person) that carries the whatever will be rewarded 100 bu= cks." (2) ro'oi da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu fo lo rupnu be li 100 "Any one or more (people) that carry the whatever will be rewarded 100 bucks." In case (1), there are no rewards. In case (2), since there were 16 carryings, the total amount rewarded is $1600. Assuming the carriers always divide the reward equally among themselves, each strongman will end up with $320. (I'm assuming that the universe of discourse is people.) >=A0The obvously correct answer is $500. =A0No interpretation of 'ro' prese= nted gives that answer (they range from $0 to $1600) Then obviously neither of those two sentences expresses what you wanted to express. This one does: (3) ro da poi su'o roi me lo bevri be lo co'e cu ba pa roi se cnemu fo lo rupnu be li 100 "Any one who is at least once one of the carriers of the whatever will be awarded once 100 bucks." Since each of the 5 were at least once one of the the carriers, each gets $= 100. I added the "su'o roi" and "pa roi" for clarity. You can remove them if you think it's clear from the context. The key ingredient is "ro da poi me lo bevri", "each one who is one of the carriers". >=A0I should add that the shift from "carries the whatsis" to "is a member = of a bunch that carries the whatsis" seems particularly illegitimate, since= we are trying to work up to questions about what quantifiers mean applied = to terms by figuring out what > =A0they mean in their natural habitat "me lo bevri be lo co'e" does not mean "is a member of a bunch that carries the whatsis". It means "is one of those that carry the whatsis". (Not that it makes any difference if you want to talk about bunches, it's just that it is not necessary to invoke bunches.) >-- and of course, carrying a pianno is very different from being in a grou= p, even if the group is carrying a piano. Right, all that matters is that they carry the piano. It's not necessary to decide whether they are a group or not, and it is certainly not necessary to call them a group even if they are one. >=A0(And, as a terminological point, 'roro'; is obviously the singular quan= tifier, since it takes the plural and breaks it down again.)]]]] Do you like "ro'oi"? It even brings reminiscences of "loi". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.