From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC4677eBBoED4JbeA@googlegroups.com Wed Apr 21 19:35:03 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4mFk-0006ci-Hh; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:35:01 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf6867397gyd.16 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:34:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zHzLqEGqcMRLvWCYekgUcTBBV+vZ6gYlTXVsMUzyV8g=; b=N6OpLo+Pd136qEcdKofbS8Tpvyw33y7h0G4Y3GRI+GwF5rFCq02PqIDmNJ2N5PEUL3 9LUzSUvrioj33oYH5LguI2TRys4Gxzhxo+G6NJiMyPQlkDvoGhfQKIITxCZpe68Jtdy+ Xclt5JADPyJXAXhbfHdum3TLrQLRu3pQj8VHc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=fmkAKEM+z5oyQnqOlrrFZujKM6adB4cMJvhD+oxXhV8mtVPRWV3BIcA73bKkabTtdt OMFTnZWSLYcKarAEOreNIHXCHFj2WQWMevmo6F9h3DeFXCmPcGLIwAR4BLmW2+DHfw4z 8U/7i2IEp7cINQCbT+NwAuaAHH/PvJTW5HGPY= Received: by 10.100.28.26 with SMTP id b26mr817728anb.23.1271903672198; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:34:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.159.7 with SMTP id l7ls25040944ago.4.p; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr3445580agi.4.1271903671419; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.9.19 with SMTP id 19mr3445579agi.4.1271903671378; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.124]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 18si924589ywh.13.2010.04.21.19.34.30; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.124; Received: (qmail 67844 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Apr 2010 02:34:29 -0000 Message-ID: <831879.67797.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: B7OtUoYVM1npK413eXvUX0zR18.cA7R3pfBUFBltaxWyJzW KNyT7EmySKE1fPopRK1yhvXefe2_0GdAhd7HFOVceC8xt5egQjRzPrIFgUb9 XOWrHZAdTtV7NVzTXKfqyHCCwttHLBbbH3oNicli9SLrudCO78A.2Mv4.gGZ FD7L9HTs5uk9HUsgGMD7.GP3YLtTY6SGFsatP0mYchoH3Pgu8HbCphd8xGGq wHdedZOPxAdGLBvJa3so83hdP_9fzQ104j8BDjhZth4GS06ySHJCSwTdW5TD 1A_itPsXaUDLsVQKQ7Kf_IngIgBpT6_.CVW2tbX0BA78o2wk0yjufY2OKXtQ SMlibHkVKtfJld4bdo_1ALZRzyyRMuLCKsc96 Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:34:29 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <75805.51342.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <934390.40893.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <391970.26672.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:34:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the reductio ad absurdum. What gives the right result in thi= s system is so remote from the question at hand as to demonstrate the total= inadequacy of the system. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 8:13:52 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:38 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > In Lojban, iirc, it would be something like 'ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu= ba se cnemu' (I admit I am trusting you for vocab here), where I leave the= nature of 'ro' open. > Suppose there are five strongmen, no one or two of which can lift the wha= tsis and any three of which can. And all the groups that can, do. And the= reward is a hundred bucks. How much do you have to pay out? (1) ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu fo lo rupnu be li 100 "Any one (person) that carries the whatever will be rewarded 100 bu= cks." (2) ro'oi da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu fo lo rupnu be li 100 "Any one or more (people) that carry the whatever will be rewarded 100 bucks." In case (1), there are no rewards. In case (2), since there were 16 carryings, the total amount rewarded is $1600. Assuming the carriers always divide the reward equally among themselves, each strongman will end up with $320. (I'm assuming that the universe of discourse is people.) > The obvously correct answer is $500. No interpretation of 'ro' presented= gives that answer (they range from $0 to $1600) Then obviously neither of those two sentences expresses what you wanted to express. This one does: (3) ro da poi su'o roi me lo bevri be lo co'e cu ba pa roi se cnemu fo lo rupnu be li 100 "Any one who is at least once one of the carriers of the whatever will be awarded once 100 bucks." Since each of the 5 were at least once one of the the carriers, each gets $= 100. I added the "su'o roi" and "pa roi" for clarity. You can remove them if you think it's clear from the context. The key ingredient is "ro da poi me lo bevri", "each one who is one of the carriers". > I should add that the shift from "carries the whatsis" to "is a member of= a bunch that carries the whatsis" seems particularly illegitimate, since w= e are trying to work up to questions about what quantifiers mean applied to= terms by figuring out what > they mean in their natural habitat "me lo bevri be lo co'e" does not mean "is a member of a bunch that carries the whatsis". It means "is one of those that carry the whatsis". (Not that it makes any difference if you want to talk about bunches, it's just that it is not necessary to invoke bunches.) >-- and of course, carrying a pianno is very different from being in a grou= p, even if the group is carrying a piano. Right, all that matters is that they carry the piano. It's not necessary to decide whether they are a group or not, and it is certainly not necessary to call them a group even if they are one. > (And, as a terminological point, 'roro'; is obviously the singular quanti= fier, since it takes the plural and breaks it down again.)]]]] Do you like "ro'oi"? It even brings reminiscences of "loi". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.