From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDnncHeBBoEQsf7BQ@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 22 06:28:56 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O4wSZ-0007yj-7S; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:28:55 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf7615646gyd.16 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:28:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=FTuFEHzZ6fd1tPbg8lbcSaX3OmhVQvKtSNlG9XIZ4kg=; b=xDa5jUp+tTweOE5WVQdS5AeGt324aNQFeBoGmjLIwLp9bqW7fiYtqFmmVRqIwraD+g bLlsF9FfkclOi8Ky56P6XfoLiQ291WIUi6ourx1LPIdIR5y13bS4VOmmJWaGRLjqT2In /8vZmo7t91yw3u/e//7nH6bOMWJ1IdsloOhp4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=rKsdz6EbOkcDLF2xI0GUCsk+k1SOB9osAAtLuhtP6QpTHez9Gn0JR07nKY31RsCJwF neunQ5oPHQIs7bURdWtQDMkPDttkDwsmXUVRZwGp3oPvoG1qlYW3lHLVxzrt2L37He3E w/nxMkQbsU6R21PtvqwHlnI1vZuowXC9XDUkw= Received: by 10.91.59.15 with SMTP id m15mr2992271agk.56.1271942887930; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.146.27 with SMTP id y27ls22790521ann.2.p; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.184.19 with SMTP id l19mr7164241anp.28.1271942795095; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.184.19 with SMTP id l19mr7164240anp.28.1271942795058; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c29si13635994anc.3.2010.04.22.06.26.33; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 65060 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Apr 2010 13:26:33 -0000 Message-ID: <571439.44322.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: MlMbp.wVM1nxiaVlDZViPVvg9_GCqRd6P1GaZtlU6HfGig9 sc_2Drrb5wv97GhqYXNFDpEyQazyHCjMGU7H8NQ8i52kzRUZN_AY10TANkBx MhP52sTZqdOlg1U0bSiVkQLeRxHtaa1GfDsisR_WVifX1ElZRdkvl5VF_j64 _4mgfrhN6WcQJVZkRlmXFhrxqODawmr2l12QdJN5AwS3ACryXUKgh7MBNXhO Yvk90EbxiEZwJqdtIkuJdmBnLik3cW7kE1uCUjWTVMll3lFTW5KUf25nPtNh K69tBFR.VmoZ_.Kfy4x8FltXau7FgnOsSV_btIFEJbzMjEGeoCs3_bE.93PL zeZIhTKRo86tRYNFtRbRrwfmBMsuSFmC7HFaq Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:26:33 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <391970.26672.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <831879.67797.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 06:26:33 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1672972271-1271942793=:44322" --0-1672972271-1271942793=:44322 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable An ancient argument. The usual line is that "everyone who" implies that th= ere is someone who and "anyone who" does not. There is another, barely min= ority, side that denies any such difference at all. Those who hold that th= ere is no difference are also divided about whether the no difference has o= r lacks existential import. Lojban is split along those lines pretty sharpl= y and I don't off hand know who is ahead at the moment (xorxes is of the no= difference school, as far as I remember, and no import; I am of the other) I would translate "anyone who" as 'ro da ganai da ... gi...' and "everyone= who" and 'ro da poi'; xorxes would probably take these to be equivalent, a= long with a variety of things involving 'lo'. ________________________________ From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 8:04:13 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' > ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu > "Anyone who carries the thing will be rewarded." I read this as "everyone who carries the thing will be rewarded"... in this= context are there any differences between "anyone who..." and "everyone wh= o..."? 2010/4/22 Jorge Llamb=EDas On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:34 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: >>> Thank you for the reductio ad absurdum. What gives the right result in= this system is so remote from the question at hand as to demonstrate the t= otal inadequacy of the system. > >So: > > >> ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu > "Anyone who carries the thing will be rewarded." > >>would be close to the question at hand, except it gives the wrong result,= while: > >> ro da poi me lo bevri be lo co'e cu ba se cnemu >> "Anyone who is among the carriers of the thing will be rewarded." > >>is remote from the question at hand, even though it gives the right >>result? Just adding three little words makes the system totally >>inadequate? > >>OK. What's an adequate system then? > > >>mu'o mi'e xorxes > >>-- >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. >>For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0-1672972271-1271942793=:44322 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
An ancient argument.  The usual line is that "everyo= ne who" implies that there is someone who and "anyone who" does not.  = There is another, barely minority, side that denies any such difference at = all.  Those who hold that there is no difference are also divided abou= t whether the no difference has or lacks existential import. Lojban is spli= t along those lines pretty sharply and I don't off hand know who is ahead a= t the moment (xorxes is of the no difference school, as far as I remember, = and no import; I am of the other)
 I would translate "anyone who" a= s 'ro da ganai da ... gi...' and "everyone who" and 'ro da poi'; xorxes wou= ld probably take these to be equivalent, along with a variety of things inv= olving 'lo'.


From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 8:04:13 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural = 'ro'

ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu
>    "Anyone who carries the thing w= ill be rewarded."

I read this as "everyone who carries the thing will be rewarded"..= . in this context are there any differences between "anyone who..." and "ev= eryone who..."?


2010/4/22 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com&= gt;
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:34 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: > Thank you for the reductio ad absurdum.  What gives the right res= ult in this system is so remote from the question at hand as to demonstrate= the total inadequacy of the system.

So:

    ro da poi bevri lo co'e cu ba se cnemu
    "Anyone who carries the thing will be rewarded."

would be close to the question at hand, except it gives the wrong result, w= hile:

    ro da poi me lo bevri be lo co'e cu ba se cnemu
    "Anyone who is among the carriers of the thing will be rewar= ded."

is remote from the question at hand, even though it gives the right
result? Just adding three little words makes the system totally
inadequate?

OK. What's an adequate system then?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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