From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCuzcLeBBoEWrFetA@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 22 12:43:05 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O52Id-0000Zb-Oj; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:43:04 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf8174806gyd.16 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:42:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bwLNoTPnWH1g0Ph0XMabkSbj6MhSdry8Ns20BeSq90g=; b=WVVFSQ4I0u3ucy6FnLO9Q5+8W/SDTZf5rT7Pi+puA9ZsGRvtvV4B3CVgMDdF0eTCt/ Ghw3dxZ0YhVocBnC0TSF7Uhql8RZpx1XUJF625W63aLM/NXAolTwhpZ9xWSNZYeu+45l W4p1hNiJxQPVlVw4o6dEXSb90hc8Oyw8wI5i8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=VPpgBum+gY08jWAQazUXR0aWQjZlYoi2RTIrtkU0X5yXOP7O04H5UpA1ZFj0ZmmBq1 I07VBjPMZprKpDLh2Hpm9yMfRlZ2/9mvkLTsPviD2DGW0r/shlUYLDsN8FPg0R5FFbZy kw07AXVpZFsNC0kOI/6R6aUv+wefXfkiD0fns= Received: by 10.150.172.7 with SMTP id u7mr1327205ybe.38.1271965358260; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:42:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.168.36 with SMTP id v36ls24201675ano.4.p; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.157.32 with SMTP id j32mr7554858ano.4.1271965357040; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.157.32 with SMTP id j32mr7554855ano.4.1271965356971; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id k1si460680ani.5.2010.04.22.12.42.35; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.120; Received: (qmail 80483 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Apr 2010 19:42:35 -0000 Message-ID: <447151.80455.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: i6RlYmYVM1mPAKdotDZHC.BLyhXpGd.hT4PeY3HT61MwMt7 BsIytxG7wVm_yVNprb6N5L8AsQrP.ldQS6sqAscDuONdm0CYgwi9t.c8UBnx ZfsEYp0SLpVqEYtLa42hhZO_RiI9dIW3XG3TaeRh7Rq0WWBSgdLJEv75S1nC meXFLx6CMFUnt7AjnPNUb9IXoG.CH5z_r2a18otcCKGEqNt5YHv1ICmNw5G6 hns4jWkmW7MPoa_N47ajgkEHhMSZcZEJy3QTADlpfFTSDhV1qoKDwIPB6jzr tcNkcy34XijADk5H8o52DlLsfJ5qYjQJmZUCvAA1dmfDWqR5eY0RsJo3A79b jQF5thT0Z9g-- Received: from [71.14.73.129] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:42:35 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/348.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.102.267879 References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <75805.51342.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <934390.40893.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <391970.26672.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BD060B7.5020903@gmail.com> <402483.50291.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:42:35 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <402483.50291.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One casualty here seems to be what I had thought were tautologies: 'lo brod= a cu broda' (if brodaing is a collective activity) or 'ro lo broda cu broda= ' (if it is singular). But, if xorxes is right, the best we can have is 's= u'o lo broda cu broda' (or maybe even 'pisu'o lo broda cu broda'). And tha= t being the case, there can be things in lo broda that have nothing to do w= ith brodaing, so that even 'ro lo broda particpate in brodaing" doesn't hol= d. The shortest way out is taking the bull by the horns and saying "lo bro= da is all and only those things that particpate in brodaing.". The two for= mer "tautologies" still don't hold and the new one does, but there are no e= xtraneous entries. ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 11:26:03 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' Well, as noted, if those groups, bunches, whatever, are L-sets, then they c= orrespond exactly to the plural quantification in McKay's book. Part of th= e question now is whether that is what plural quantification means in Lojba= n -- and perhaps just what the consequences of all this is in practice. T= o take a case in point 'lo bevri be lo plano' (where did we get that word?)= refers to several things or a bunch. Now the things, which must be things= that carry a piano, turn out in the hypothetical case we are looking at, t= o be pluralities or bunches (it takes at least three of the five participan= ts to carry the piano). So, then, what satisfies 'me lo bevri be lo plano'?= What is obviously there are the sixteen groups, whether bunches or just p= luralities, of three or more participants. xorxes apparently is claiming t= hat the right answer is just the three participants themselves, in spite of= the fact that they don't satisfy the defining predicate. I suppose you could claim that, since each of these groups satisfies the predicate, t= hen the things that satisfy the predicate is the union of these, which woul= d, in fact reduce the group of participants. But this looks perilous: thou= gh I can't come up with a good case where it is clearly wrong, I also can't= prove that it is correct. One attempt along this line might be to conside= r that, while all the threesomes and foursomes actually carried the piano, = the fivesome did not. The union would be the same, but the referent of the= term would again be a plurality that did not in fact meet the property (an= d, in general, the fact that something unioned in has a property does not m= ean that the union does). , On the other hand, what xorxes pulls out is the= right thing for the case and the question then is, where did he get it. ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 9:44:07 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 22/04/2010 02:13: > On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:38 PM, John E Clifford w= rote: > (Not that it makes any difference if you want to talk about bunches, > it's just that it is not necessary to invoke bunches.) >=20 >> -- and of course, carrying a piano is very different from being in a gro= up, even if the group is carrying a piano. >=20 > Right, all that matters is that they carry the piano. It's not > necessary to decide whether they are a group or not, and it is > certainly not necessary to call them a group even if they are one. If every possibly combination of individuals constitutes a group/bunch/set/= collectivity, so that there is no doubt over the definitiion, is it necessa= ry, and is it advantageous, to invoke plural quantification/predication?=20 --And. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.