From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRD7gcPeBBoEALUqXQ@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 22 14:35:16 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O543F-0007ko-1g; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:35:16 -0700 Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20sf2741779vws.16 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:35:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=vjAgJD0oLnGEnA+OGcN9ubGvvn6waXWhdErVyfNZKBc=; b=U+kWJd0aB6wz2lVCvx4Gg+Jo9Xt9DbHH87/DMAgA1Gg0Gnl/cFxvsWvgkdwcK8daAI Bjz/dQ9SVdB0+JflW6/HjBWh03a+EibIc/gy+uWf3S8IFRswV2yhso1UPUVR83GiA5v+ Ef/361Qb2Qx0S1CnXB8VQu8RBSOKHjO2v2F74= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=F62o0sYeqm9YsuoobRHLXznljYJC+Ft6iS8NunxoqYEQXrvJSfwa6GhMKR5dAxF/jK H8oI8NFpQNufag3fUCrcYpe/du/AsrQC2Ux71Iq1fTZxgwfQIORHrDUNQkeNzQ5rIFRi hR9BRSikqkDmPTePcxE2Udd6X0gm51NBN4kxQ= Received: by 10.220.107.86 with SMTP id a22mr838853vcp.9.1271972091233; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:34:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.85 with SMTP id o21ls26396704vck.0.p; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.171.67 with SMTP id g3mr2260700vcz.27.1271972090198; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.171.67 with SMTP id g3mr2260699vcz.27.1271972090171; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f197.google.com (mail-qy0-f197.google.com [209.85.221.197]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a10si267858vci.4.2010.04.22.14.34.48; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.197 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.197; Received: by mail-qy0-f197.google.com with SMTP id 35so7690453qyk.11 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:34:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:34:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4BD060B7.5020903@gmail.com> References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <934390.40893.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <391970.26672.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BD060B7.5020903@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:34:48 -0300 Received: by 10.229.211.210 with SMTP id gp18mr1365237qcb.31.1271972088458; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.197 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 11:44 AM, And Rosta wrote: > > If every possibly combination of individuals constitutes a > group/bunch/set/collectivity, so that there is no doubt over the > definitiion, is it necessary, and is it advantageous, to invoke plural > quantification/predication? Plural reference is useful to say things like: lo tadni cu dasni lo xunre mapku gi'e sruri lo dinju "The students wore red caps and surrounded the building." With groups instead of plural reference, we would have to split the claim into two: each student (not the group) wore red caps, and the group (not each student) surrounded the building. Or else, change one of the predicates to something like "participated in the surrounding of the building", or "has members each of which wore red hats". That's less appealing than just saying of the students that they wear hats and that they (the same students that wear the hats) surround the building. For that, we only need plural reference, not plural quantification. According to pc, we can't have plural reference without plural quantification. I don't have a problem with introducing let's say "ro'oi" and "su'oi" for the plural universal and existential quantifiers. As long as we leave "ro" and "su'o" for the usual singular ones, which are the ones most often needed. That's the case for plural reference. A second issue, completely separate from the above, is the meaning of an expression like: ro cu broda given that "ro" is the singular universal quantifier, and is a term with plural reference. Now, a quantifier needs a domain of quantification. A term with plural reference has a number of referents. What to do? I know! Let's use the set of referents of the sumti as the domain of quantification for the quantifier! (What else?) But what if instead of a singular quantifier, we have a plural quantifier: ro'oi cu broda Now, a plural quantifier also needs a domain of quantification. Again, we note that a term with plural reference has a number of referents. What to do? How about... let's use the set of referents of the sumti as the domain of quantification for the plural quantifier! Now comes a third issue, independent of the other two issues. We know (or at least don't argue much about) how sumti such as ti, ta, tu, mi, do, ri, ra, ko'a, di'u, etc. get their referents, which can be one or many. But how does a sumti like "lo broda" get its referents? No matter how it gets them, we know that they must satisfy the broda predicate, i.e. "lo broda cu broda". Is it necessary that each of the referents satisfy the predicate? No. Is it necessary that they satisfy it all collectively? No. Is it necessary that they satisfy it in groups of seven? No. In groups of varying numbers? No, that's not necessary either. All that is required is that its referents must satisfy the predicate "broda", in whatever arrangement they do it, i.e. "lo broda" = "zo'e noi ke'a broda", it is a sumti whose referent(s) satisfy the predicate broda. When we need to specify how exactly the referents of "lo broda" broda, we have to do it by some other means, because "lo broda" by itself doesn't say. Similarly, in "lo broda cu brode", when we need to specify how exactly the referents of "lo broda" brode, we need to do it in some other way, because neither "lo broda" nor "brode" do it. What means do we have at our disposal? One is the singular universal quantifier "ro": ro lo tadni cu dasni lo xunre mapku "Each one of the students wears a red cap." What about the surrounding of the building? Well, we could say, for example: pa djine be lo tadni cu sruri lo dinju "One ring of students surrounded the building." Or: ci djine be lo tadni cu sruri lo dinju "Three rings of students surrounded the building." After all, there are many different configurations in which the students could surround the building together. If we are not too concerned about the exact configuration, but we still want to insist that they did it as a group (in case that's not obvious from the context), we could say: lo gunma be lo tadni cu sruri lo dinju "A group of students surrounded the building." As someone once said, the price of infinite precision is infinite verbosity. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.