From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDsjcPeBBoEegDgEQ@googlegroups.com Thu Apr 22 15:00:46 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O54Rp-0000QO-Hz; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:46 -0700 Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20sf2750403vws.16 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DIeoMXfTkCmgBCGBeiU8dc3vmoHvuibX76WeHdw2+FE=; b=eE7a6Y86OwhzBvQcHe/067/2ANZo1SApjdJwMsnv5tezg0j0/O5737tW31Fv4on72p HUBUwWMi+h+GPAkshCnwhAtbjG86/gPuREPAgykhVPL6eKGGo5xoRZu8WGTa5XCHrLYe m18o/OKKDFAI2upqfEf0ojw2Qj21dUjdQZAYM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=A6XjKldvlY05vo6+8VzRddUWRRzuRBNijS5BeGoY/JLgRNPw6oVOJLYMZvqZPXxr8H 6YFUC5UE36agCnRMdnSgTsRp6hwK8lFFUz2ayFj+zwSlDpEJPna3CrqLXXaAdKa4PVYK BMAfin/Yk4c8BhRuYObQTZpNR+8K0QKqbc8lg= Received: by 10.220.123.156 with SMTP id p28mr249931vcr.29.1271973612272; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.85 with SMTP id o21ls26517315vck.0.p; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.83 with SMTP id t19mr2327840vcy.10.1271973607449; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.168.83 with SMTP id t19mr2327839vcy.10.1271973607407; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com (mail-qy0-f179.google.com [209.85.221.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b14si284459vcx.1.2010.04.22.15.00.05; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.179; Received: by mail-qy0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 9so11975735qyk.1 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.79.75 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <402483.50291.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6a2c862a-91f0-452e-9a31-0064620d5d06@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <391970.26672.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <225049.90411.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <734238.40743.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BD060B7.5020903@gmail.com> <402483.50291.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:00:00 -0300 Received: by 10.229.233.199 with SMTP id jz7mr619735qcb.56.1271973600253; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] About plural 'ro' From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:26 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > To take a case in point 'lo bevri be lo plano' (where did we get that wor= d?) It's "lo pipno", BTW. Or maybe you meant "lo plana": "the fat one". > refers to several things or a bunch. =A0Now the things, which must be thi= ngs that carry a piano, turn out in the hypothetical case we are looking at= , to be pluralities or bunches (it takes at least three of the five partici= pants to carry the piano). So, then, what satisfies 'me lo bevri be lo plan= o'? =A0What is obviously there are the sixteen groups, whether bunches or j= ust pluralities, of three or more participants. =A0xorxes apparently is cla= iming that the right answer is just the three participants themselves, Indeed. Three, four or five, depending on the occasion. > in spite of the fact that they don't satisfy the defining predicate. But they do. Together. Each of them doesn't. Together, they do. >=A0I suppose > =A0you could claim that, since each of these groups satisfies the predica= te, then the things that satisfy the predicate is the union of these, which= would, in fact reduce the group of participants. =A0But this looks perilou= s: though I can't come up with a good case where it is clearly wrong, I als= o can't prove that it is correct. =A0One attempt along this line might be t= o consider that, while all the threesomes and foursomes actually carried th= e piano, the fivesome did not. =A0The union would be the same, but the refe= rent of the term would again be a plurality that did not in fact meet the p= roperty (and, in general, the fact that something unioned in has a property= does not mean that the union does). , On the other hand, what xorxes pulls= out is the right thing for the case and the question then is, where did he= get it. The referentS of the term (not the referent, because the term has more than one referent) vary from occasion to occasion of carrying. Just like John may have a beard one day and not the next, the carriers of the piano may be four at some point and three at some other point, and a different three at another. Or they may be five, who took turns in carrying the piano in such way that at no point were they all carrying it together. There is no need to encode all that precision in a poor little gadri. If you want to talk about the ones that were carriers at 10:25 a.m., then you will have to say "the carriers of the piano at 10:25 a.m.", we can't have an "all together" gadri, and a "one by one" gadri, and an "in groups of 3, 4 and 5" gadri and an "at 10:25 a.m." gadri. All that, when needed, has to be added by other means. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.